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Sydney Rose · Oct 2, 2016

Hi Katrin,

Sorry you haven't found a good coach but good for you for refusing to give up your passion.

Have you checked out these sites:

myskatecoach.com

icoachskating.com

Hundreds of videos to choose from to help you master whatever skills you want to master. I wish I had these resources available to me when I tried figure skating as an adult.

sandraskates · Oct 2, 2016

Awe Katrin. Your post breaks my heart.

The coaches that reject adult skaters are now out of touch. Adults take skating lessons because they WANT TO, not because anybody is pushing them. They are eager and dedicated, just like you sound in your post. And I know there are Adult competitions in Europe.
An adult skater from Germany - probably in age to his mid-40s to 50 - recently visited my rink and he had an amazing axel. He told me that ice time is limited but he didn't mention anything about coaches not wanting to teach adults.

Maybe the 5 adults in your group could get together, find a coach that would be happy to teach all of you, and pool your money together for a weekly group lesson.

I wish you good luck. Keep skating and eventually maybe one coach will take notice of the dedication and change their mind about teaching adults. It will only take one and then others may begin to see the light.

karne · Oct 2, 2016

Katie J said:
Hallo,
One coach I felt the chemistry was not really functioning and he didnt know a lot about jump technique: F.ex: I did a toeloop entry he didnt know, I told him this entry all world class skaters would use, noone did a toeloop out of an forward inside edge turning to back outside egde anymore and I though : This coach wants to teach jumps?

With all due respect: no wonder this coach didn't want to teach you. Your attitude was basically: "Oh my god, no-one does it this way, you're such a sucky coach!". Actually, the FI 3 turn is still a thing. It's actually how I do my toe loops. Not everyone has the selective co-ordination to handle the toe loop entry that the top skaters do. The FI 3 turn is a little easier when you're first learning and is a good stepping stone.

Katie J said:
So I was fed up with relying on coaches and started 6 month ago with end of the ice season a program of my own:
Who was the best jumper in the world ? Hanyu. OK, he would be my teacher, I followed the Hanyu thread to get every bit of information how he trains off ice and on ice. And there it was : The middle. Hanyus japanese coach always insisted that Hanyu kept his middle and did everything out of his middle.

The real basics NO coach ever told me: To find the middle. Feeling where my body position was askew. Correct walking, biking, crawl swimming. And I found I always lifted my right side a little bit too much, left side falling....aha, my round Axel caused of that...and my wandering left foot spin !

Then I did lots of off ice jumps, unnumerable Axels, f.ex. today it was loop jump and Flip.
I wanted to copy Hanyus posture in every detail: Didnt function, I tensed up by watching myself. Now I try to keep my middle and only visualise the big picture, recall body feelings and try to feel if I pull.

The story of my skating life. I feel like a lone wolf.

Teaching yourself is also a terrible idea. Hanyu is good, yes. Why is he so good? Because he's had years of training and working with coaches. You can't just copy what you see on Hanyu videos and hope for the best. If that actually worked then I'd be the best jumper in my rink because I watch Joshua, Max, Evgeni, Artur.

With all due respect, you need to tone down your attitude. Just because a coach is showing you a way that the elite skaters don't do, doesn't mean it's a wrong way. In fact, it's possible that the elite skaters even started learning things the way your coach wanted to teach you, then developed the skills to handle different entries.

I think also your problem is entirely different to the OP's.

Katie J · Oct 3, 2016

Thanks to all for understanding me and also to Karne, she maybe a psychologist to read my inner self.
Yes, I have a lot of these trainings-Videos, I like specially the very deep-going ones from Ksenia and Oleg, I understand them perfectly, and thats not real often I understand a coach, see down what I write to Karne.

Hallo Karne,

its the figure skater who chooses his coach, especially in my age I am picky.

I think my problem is similar, because I wanted to get regular training from this coach I mentioned, she is the only one really trying to get something into me.

What you said about my attitude: Yes, I feel definitely different, you exactly hit the point, maybe I am arrogant, yes - OK.
But I am another class as usual adult beginners in skating. A journalist once saw me on ice and thought, that I was a former competitive figure skater, I said: No. I dont have this typical adult hestitation to take up speed, jump out or do get into deep edges, falling was never a problem for me.

Just to inform you: Karate shotokan I was in national team.
Afterwards with age of 26 I began windsurfing, I never had a teacher or a coach, no windsurfer has it, we learn all from watching and coyping. I love waves, with age 42 I learned a forward loop (= salto) in windsurfing in spite everyone said: you are too old for that, I thought back loop easy, I rode waves like crazy. I did some competitions, I hadnt a sponsor, I was already old then and not pretty.

Figure skating at the age of 51 got me because it is so difficult. So why not watching and copying also in figure skating like I was used to?
I watched Yagudin do a fly camel (= jumped in) and did it the next day on ice really perfect, I couldnt believe myself. But, and that was irritating me a lot...it vanished. Because my body position began to vary, I pressed round the corner, I did it also with Axel, my Axels all round. Some coaches said: Dont pull. I said: Whats pulling ? First this one coach I mentioned I want to train with, she let me understand, and with her help, and Hanyus middle, coaching Videos and my many off ice jumps now I search for the perfect body positions. Better: The perfect body feelings. These are my coaches when alone on ice as usual.

Too keep it short: Yes, I am arrogant, I want to do a 2A one day. If a coach wants to help me, fine. And if you want to help me as you are a figure skater yourself, I would appreciate your advice, honestly.

lyndichee · Oct 3, 2016

karne said:
With all due respect: no wonder this coach didn't want to teach you. Your attitude was basically: "Oh my god, no-one does it this way, you're such a sucky coach!". Actually, the FI 3 turn is still a thing. It's actually how I do my toe loops. Not everyone has the selective co-ordination to handle the toe loop entry that the top skaters do. The FI 3 turn is a little easier when you're first learning and is a good stepping stone.

Teaching yourself is also a terrible idea. Hanyu is good, yes. Why is he so good? Because he's had years of training and working with coaches. You can't just copy what you see on Hanyu videos and hope for the best. If that actually worked then I'd be the best jumper in my rink because I watch Joshua, Max, Evgeni, Artur.

With all due respect, you need to tone down your attitude. Just because a coach is showing you a way that the elite skaters don't do, doesn't mean it's a wrong way. In fact, it's possible that the elite skaters even started learning things the way your coach wanted to teach you, then developed the skills to handle different entries.

I think also your problem is entirely different to the OP's.

Your response is similar to "No offence but -insert something offensive-." karne, sometimes I feel like you need to tone down your attitude. She is a lady who is frustrated and feels powerless over the situation she is in. While she made a comment saying the toe-loop entry was different, at least she tried to do her research and consulted the coach. If the coach doesn't even know of the different entry, then yes, it does cast doubt on the coach's ability.

What is wrong with teaching themselves? She is out of resources and while she can't imitate what young, Olympic level skaters can do, there are pointers to be learned. I think Yuzuru's idea about strengthening the core is an excellent idea. In most sports, your core muscles are important. She doesn't expect to throw out the jumps that Hanyu has but if I wanted to learn an axel, Yuzu's consistency and technique is somewhere I would want to learn from. She never implied watching Hanyu makes her the best jumper; she just wants to improve.

Katie J said:
Too keep it short: Yes, I am arrogant, I want to do a 2A one day. If a coach wants to help me, fine. And if you want to help me as you are a figure skater yourself, I would appreciate your advice, honestly.

I don't think you're arrogant; just a little naïve. I think you've just learned that dreams don't always equal reality. However, being naïve means you won't be limited by what others believe are "realistic expectations." As a person in my early 20's who does not want to risk injuring their body, I applaud you for your efforts and wish you luck.

Katie J · Oct 4, 2016

lyndichee said:
However, being naïve means you won't be limited by what others believe are "realistic expectations."

Exactly. My motto is: Why not ? Nothing is written !

I can just get the idea how axel technique is, I will jump my own one.

Thanks for your words.

cl2 · Oct 4, 2016

Katie J, sorry to hear about your coaching situation. I can understand how frustrating it is to be treated like an outsider despite being eager to learn.

Just to rationalize (but not justify) the coaches' reluctance to taking on adult skaters a little bit... pedagogically speaking, teaching adults is very different from teaching kids. Generally speaking, adults tend to expect specifics, details and technique (abstraction), whereas children learn through visual and motor cues (concreteness). Adults have a mind of their own and have vastly different life experiences, whereas kids are psychologically less developed and just do whatever they are told. (In jest: adults have a ton of other life commitments, whereas kids just have parents dragging them to the rink everyday.) I suspect that you might see hints of the former traits in yourself. This means that teaching adults is a different skill set that coaches may not have---either due to lack of exposure to adult skaters, or a conscious decision to build their career on their original expertise of teaching kids---and one cannot fault them for choosing not to teach adults. It's like faulting a neurosurgeon for not treating a cancer patient.

Having said that, don't give up on finding the right coach. It helps that you're physically active all your life with good body awareness and a keen eye for technique, but karne did make one point I agree with, which is the indisputable benefit of having a coach: he/she is a seasoned eye to check you from learning bad habits. sandraskates's suggestion to band together with other adult skaters might motivate a coach to expand his/her expertise to adult skaters.

At my rink, a coach who was a former national pairs champion has a (relatively) large group of adult students at a (relatively) high level. He loves teaching adults! So, awesome coaches like that do exist.

MiraiFan · Oct 6, 2016

Our rink (in the US) has great coaches and most of them really like working with adult skaters since the adults really want to be there and improve. I do a lesson every three weeks and then practice on my own twice a week.

Katie J · Oct 6, 2016

cl2 said:
adults tend to expect specifics, details and technique (abstraction), whereas children learn through visual and motor cues (concreteness). Adults have a mind of their own and have vastly different life experiences, whereas kids are psychologically less developed and just do whatever they are told. ....It's like faulting a neurosurgeon for not treating a cancer patient.
...
At my rink, a coach who was a former national pairs champion has a (relatively) large group of adult students at a (relatively) high level. He loves teaching adults! So, awesome coaches like that do exist.

Thanks a lot for your words !
When I began skating, I did some things right, but also some wrong. These things my body didnt do right from begin are the hardest to wipe out, f.ex. to use hips for jump- rotation.
A coach said to me: "You will find out how 2S works". Thats an advice for a child. Brains of children are different built, I know, nerves in "quick learning"- form connected.
I love putting the technical puzzles together, deleting faults is my play: The more faults, the more possibilities I have. Today I detected definitely how to move arms during take off for jumps. Thats success for me.
When there is no coach for me "speaking my language", should I stop skating till I have found one to avoid faults ? I know a young skater with problems in jumps constantly training with coaches, and what technique they gave him ! When there is noone to drive with you from a cold, dark, wet Winter-Germany to sunny Spain 2500 km, do you wait ? What for ? Because it could happen something ? I was happy driving alone year for year because I was my own boss.

concorde · Oct 7, 2016

I fully agree with cl2 comment's about specifics, details, and technique. I taught swimming for 20+ years (before kids) and that is generally what I found. As a result, an instructor that teaches adults really needs to know they physics of the sport which is different from simply correcting an error.

Added to that, adults then bring a lot of fears that need to be overcome. The fears are different (swimming vs ice skating) but they are still there - I know that my daughter never thinks about an accident, but I am thinking, if something happens to me, who is going to get the kids home from the rink, run the house (and all the kid's activities) while I am in bed recuperating.

Another consideration from an instructor's point of view is frequency of lessons. If you only have a certain block of time you can teach, do you take the "guarantee" student that you know will be there 3x a week, months on end OR do you want to take the student that only wants a lesson a maybe 2x a month? If your only income is from teaching, you are going to go with the guarantee.

Some of my most favorite student over the years were adults and I always tried to fit them into my schedule whenever possible. But I know that I was the exception that I could teach both kids and adults.

treesprite · Oct 8, 2016

Anyone who starts skating as an adult deserves a medal of courage; if I had not skated as a kid, I never would have skated as an adult.

I will say that I do not agree with most people about learning without a coach. It is probably really difficult for most people to do, and I don't think I could have done it because I just can't translate what I watch without verbal instruction and explanations. However, someone who is determined to learn things, will learn them. There is a woman at the rink here who is maybe not quite 30yo. She has never taken lessons, not even beginners, yet she can do most of the single jumps with good positions, and can do scratch spins. She practices at least 3 days a week and focuses very hard on what she is doing. I met her a couple years ago, so can say that she is progressing at almost the same rate as other adult skaters I know who take private lessons. I can only imagine how fast she would have progressed had she been working with a coach all this time.

Katie J · Nov 25, 2016

Hi to Joel, how are you doing now ? Greetings to all !
A change of opinion: I take lessons now to get the correct stance. Its not about jumping - its first the correct stance and way later jumping
I found a coach and I can say I trust him, understand him and his corrections are worth gold. I did with him yesterday in 2 hr private lessons the utmost basic things. I fully accept his corrections as I feel my stance getting to this perfect feeling I always looked for.

TGee · Nov 25, 2016

Katie J said:
Hi to Joel, how are you doing now ? Greetings to all !
A change of opinion: I take lessons now to get the correct stance. Its not about jumping - its first the correct stance and way later jumping
I found a coach and I can say I trust him, understand him and his corrections are worth gold. I did with him yesterday in 2 hr private lessons the utmost basic things. I fully accept his corrections as I feel my stance getting to this perfect feeling I always looked for.

Glad that you found a coach to work with you. Learning and coaching adult skaters seems to be a different thing. I hope that you and your coach, if he's not worked much with adults, will be flexible to adapt as you go.

Sounds smart to start with posture, skating skills and basic dance steps....

When I went back to skating again as an adult, one coach said that all the years of just walking interferes with the movements needed for skating. In fact, there seems to be a consensus that, contrary to children learning to skate, learning to skate in good form backwards is easier than forwards for adults.... Since we don't walk backwards there is less body memory fighting the new movements of skating.

Gennevieve · Jan 18, 2017

mrrice said:
Hello Joel, I must tell you that your situation is not uncommon. My Parents paid for my lessons after I begged them to get into skating. Like you, I was 16 and considered "Old" for a beginner but, I had taken dance before and I felt that I was beyond the level of the beginning students. Here's what I did and it actually worked for me. I asked the teacher from the advanced class if I could watch a couple of sessions and told her I was interested in seeing where I could go if I continued training. She agreed and I took my best friend to the advanced class and we sat in the stands and watched for the next two months. I eventually noticed a very talented skater in the advanced class and asked her if she'd be interested in tutoring me for a fee.

It worked out well and I continued to advance until I had all of my double jumps. I eventually left skating to go on the road as a singer but, I was happy with my time in skating. Having my tutor, "Tiffany" help me was a big part of why I progressed as quickly as I did. I hope that helped. Good luck....

How long did you take to get all your double jumps?

mrrice · Jan 18, 2017

Gennevieve said:
How long did you take to get all your double jumps?

As I mentioned in my original post, I had danced before so, I did have a good sense of how my body worked before I really started to take lessons. I started right after Christmas and I could do doubles by the Summer. In fact, we did a 4th of July performance that Summer and that was the first time I did double jumps in performance. So, I would say it took me about 7 months. Please note, I was a very dorky teen. I didn't go to parties and I didn't have a job like most teens do. I also had my tutor "Tiffany" who really spent a lot of time helping me. Without her help and motivation, I probably would have quit as I was quite bored in the beginning classes. Are you currently taking lessons?

narcissa · Jan 18, 2017

mrrice said:
As I mentioned in my original post, I had danced before so, I did have a good sense of how my body worked before I really started to take lessons. I started right after Christmas and I could do doubles by the Summer. In fact, we did a 4th of July performance that Summer and that was the first time I did double jumps in performance. So, I would say it took me about 7 months. Please note, I was a very dorky teen. I didn't go to parties and I didn't have a job like most teens do. I also had my tutor "Tiffany" who really spent a lot of time helping me. Without her help and motivation, I probably would have quit as I was quite bored in the beginning classes. Are you currently taking lessons?

Wow! 7 months to go from no skating to doubles :shocked: you must be so talented! It's taken me 1.5 years just to get some (not even all) of my singles :hopelessness:

jenaj · Jan 18, 2017

gkelly said:
No, figure skating clubs are not in business to make money. They're voluntary amateur organizations whose purpose is to serve their members.

The main purpose might be to secure ice time dedicated to figure skating practice. A few clubs may own their own rinks, but most rent ice from a commercial or municipal rink etc. and then sell the right to skate on that ice time to their members.

Some clubs buy as much ice time as they can get, in between other uses (public skating, hockey) that earn the rinks more money and thus require members to purchase club ice time along with membership.

Others, in areas where rinks offer significant amounts of ice time dedicated to figure skating practice, may not buy much practice ice but their existence reassures the rinks that there are enough figure skaters in the area to make figure skating sessions worth the rinks' while financially.

Some clubs hire coaches/instructors directly; others allow approved coaches to teach during club sessions in which case the coach pays a fee to the club for use of the ice but then keeps whatever lesson fees they collect from students.

Clubs may also buy ice time to host test sessions (in countries whose federations have standard testing), competitions, club ice shows, social ice dancing, etc. Some of these activities would only be for members, others might welcome skaters from outside the club, for higher fees, and earn some profit that way.

For insurance reasons, clubs may require skaters to be members of the club in order to skate on club ice. Or to be members of the national federation.

It's unfortunate if the only club in the area is only interested in serving a limited subset of potential figure skaters, whether limited by age or sex or skating discipline or race/religion/nationality or economic status, etc.

Historically there have been skating clubs that were exclusive in the ways clubs dedicated to golf, swimming, tennis, and other private sports facilities may have refused to admit members whose social identity didn't fit in with the existing membership. That's much less common today than 50 or 100 years ago, but there may still be some racism or antisemitism around somewhere.

What's more likely is that in an area with only one rink or fewer rinks than needed to meet the demand of all recreational and hockey and figure skating, and maybe speedskating and/or curling as well, a club was formed by parents for the purpose of ensuring that their kids have regular ice time to practice on every week. It may not be as much ice time as there is interest, so figure skating sessions are already overcrowded. In that case, there would be little incentive to accept members who don't fit the mission of the rest of the club.

Without knowing the details of the club JoelBecker tried to join, I could only guess why they have been unwelcoming.

I also don't know nearly as much about how clubs operate in Europe -- my personal experience is in the US.

Might there be other members of the local club you could talk to? Coaches? Are there any younger boys skating in this club? Are there empty public sessions at off hours that you can go to and take lessons then? Are there any rinks in France or Germany or Belgium you could travel to sometimes that have appropriate sessions for you to skate on, and any adult skaters there who could welcome you into their ranks?

They might not be in business to make money, but they need money. Otherwise they wouldn't charge a fee. I would say that a club that doesn't want another paying member is the exception.

mrrice · Jan 18, 2017

Well, I really wasn't a normal beginner. I had been in ballet since I was 5 years old and I could turn and jump on the ground, in both directions before I began taking lessons. I think jumps are scary for people who afraid of falling especially if they've never danced. Like I said, having a private coach and friend was by far the biggest reason that I did as well as I did. There were lots of things I was able to skip because I was the focus of my lesson. In a class, you move as a group and for me, it just found it frustrating and dull. I hope that made sense.

gkelly · Jan 18, 2017

Private lessons right from the beginning or early on are typical in the US for skaters who want to be more than recreational. Even so, two years of private lessons before first attempting double salchow is probably more typical than landing most doubles in less than a year.

Mathman · Jan 18, 2017

mrrice said:
Well, I really wasn't a normal beginner. I had been in ballet since I was 5 years old and I could turn and jump on the ground, in both directions before I began taking lessons..

Could you jump and spin in both directions as a skater?

N

Sydney Rose

sandraskates

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

Katie J

lyndichee

Katie J

cl2

MiraiFan

Katie J

concorde

treesprite

Katie J

TGee

Gennevieve

mrrice

narcissa

jenaj

mrrice

gkelly

Mathman

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