Senior skaters recycling choreography

It seems to have come up quite a bit lately. But we're seeing a lot of "recycled" programs.
There are some video comparisons:
Evgenia Medvedeva LP https://youtu.be/nuKoGRn8Grw
Gracie Gold SP https://youtu.be/YC3gPmU7vE8
Ashley Wagner LP https://youtu.be/2gcAOtSDgcs

I thought it brings up an interesting conversation. Being a figure skater myself, I know how hard it is to come up with COMPLETELY new programs during the off season. Elite skaters off-season tends to be somewhat short on time, and you don't want to spend too much time choreographing programs.. you want to spend more time TRAINING them.


Evgenia - Well, she's been doing pretty much the same program for 4 years now. I would love to see a different genre and I'm not a fan of the program, but I don't think any of that matters if she keeps skating the way she is!
Gracie - well, they're both tangos.
Ashley - I really don't think it's incredibly similar. Yes, the jump layout is the same, but why change that if it's working for you? The emotion and theme along with the footwork and spins are different. I give her the thumbs up.

I think all the ones we have commented on have some differences, but a lot of similarities.

Should skaters start preparing for the new season earlier, so they can have more time to choreograph ALL NEW programs??

It really just varies from skater to skater and their individual circumstances. In a perfect world, skaters would do something totally new and different every season.

Similar layouts don't bother me much at all - after all, layout of the elements has little to do with choreography/theme/mood of the program - but I do get disappointed seeing highly capable skaters utilize the same choreographic movements and types of music when they are in a place to be challenging themselves. This season, it's Evgenia. It's the season before the Olympics, she's the best in the world, and I'm dying to see something new from her. In particular, I dislike seeing a skater do something similar but not necessarily improving on it. Ashley improved on Moulin Rouge last season. I'm not sure if Evgenia's programs this season are better than last season, especially her LP.

Ashley's programs are very different than last season in mood, theme, interpretation. It's great.

Gracie's kind of recycling last season's stuff, but considering her struggles, it's more understandable.

I thought the choreography is the choreographers job, not the skaters

theskatingbutterfly said:

Should skaters start preparing for the new season earlier, so they can have more time to choreograph ALL NEW programs??

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My question is: why does it take so long? Skaters only have a few minutes worth of program, much of which is already eaten up with technical elements (like jumps and spins) which they already know the foundations for, and those few minutes are all they ever use for an entire year (sometimes two).

sabinfire said:

My question is: why does it take so long? Skaters only have a few minutes worth of program, much of which is already eaten up with technical elements (like jumps and spins) which they already know the foundations for, and those few minutes are all they ever use for an entire year (sometimes two).

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It is a long process (at least for me) because there are so many details, moments you try to hit, going back and changing things, etc. Choreographers tend to be perfectionists somewhat. If you get one part done and then try it with the music and it doesn't match, sometimes that means that whole section has to change. Not to mention footwork Every turn, every step, trying to get it level 4, well, let's just say that takes a long time.

Sometimes it also depends on the skater, and how well they can pick up new steps. Some can only take a little at a time and have to repeat it multiple times before they get it.

andromache said:

It really just varies from skater to skater and their individual circumstances. In a perfect world, skaters would do something totally new and different every season.

Similar layouts don't bother me much at all - after all, layout of the elements has little to do with choreography/theme/mood of the program - but I do get disappointed seeing highly capable skaters utilize the same choreographic movements and types of music when they are in a place to be challenging themselves. This season, it's Evgenia. It's the season before the Olympics, she's the best in the world, and I'm dying to see something new from her. In particular, I dislike seeing a skater do something similar but not necessarily improving on it. Ashley improved on Moulin Rouge last season. I'm not sure if Evgenia's programs this season are better than last season, especially her LP.

Ashley's programs are very different than last season in mood, theme, interpretation. It's great.

Gracie's kind of recycling last season's stuff, but considering her struggles, it's more understandable.

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I totally agree with this! I made a comparison of Ashley's as well and find the two programs to be completely different. The only thing the same is the jumps. Footwork and spins are different and emotion and theme is different. https://youtu.be/2gcAOtSDgcs

Biellmann said:

I thought the choreography is the choreographers job, not the skaters

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A skater needs to be aware of their own skating. The choreographer is there to help the skater present the best possible picture they can and to make them more aware of themselves and their movement/emotions/performance. If all skaters were taught about choreography extensively, then actually there would be no need to just go to a single choreographer and only do exactly what they say. It would be a collaboration. However, many female singles skaters especially are very young. There's only so much they can have learned and experienced at that point in their lives, particularly when they tend to be quite sheltered individuals who are putting so much of their time into training in a relatively isolated rink environment.

Anyway, back to the title of the thread, recycled choreography should be getting PCS deductions unless somehow the recycled choreography still works exactly as well with the new music and as a choreographic whole. That is rarely the case, though. We've seen how nonsensical the PCS judging is and until it changes, we will continue to see too much recycled and uninspired choreography.

Biellmann said:

I thought the choreography is the choreographers job, not the skaters

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It is absolutely the Choreographers job. HOWEVER, you can only do some much if you have a student who either doesn't show up, or doesn't practice. Christopher Bowman comes to mind immediately. Remember when he disappeared on Frank. Chris told Frank that he was with his Choreographer ( I think it was Renée Roca ) and he told her that he was with Frank. My dance teacher locked the door as soon as we starting our warm up and if you were late, and didn't have a note, she sent you home. It was part of our contract to be in the advanced class. 3 absences without a note and you went back to intermediate level.

You have to remember that some choreographers are booked solid and if you're injured or miss your flight and don't show up for your session. There's nothing the choreographer can do about it. They have schedules to keep.

theskatingbutterfly said:

It seems to have come up quite a bit lately. But we're seeing a lot of "recycled" programs.
There are some video comparisons:
Evgenia Medvedeva LP https://youtu.be/nuKoGRn8Grw
Gracie Gold SP https://youtu.be/YC3gPmU7vE8
Ashley Wagner LP https://youtu.be/2gcAOtSDgcs

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Thank you for this, especially Evgenia's side by side, those two programs are way too similar.

I wonder if a solution to this would be for skaters to work with different choreographers more frequently? Everyone seems to find one or two choreographers they stick to, but in a lot of cases, you end up seeing the recycling from previous years.

SarahSynchro said:

Thank you for this, especially Evgenia's side by side, those two programs are way too similar.

I wonder if a solution to this would be for skaters to work with different choreographers more frequently? Everyone seems to find one or two choreographers they stick to, but in a lot of cases, you end up seeing the recycling from previous years.

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I'm super happy with skaters developing relationships with choreographers and wanting to stick with them, and those relationships can often produce brilliant and diverse programs - which is why I'm extra disappointed with Averbukh. I LOVED Evgenia's LP last season, but seeing that he's repackaged it as a "tragic" program for this season impresses me much less.

ETA: After watching Gracie's side-by-sides as well....they should've just kept the SP from last season.

theskatingbutterfly said:

It seems to have come up quite a bit lately. But we're seeing a lot of "recycled" programs.
There are some video comparisons:
Evgenia Medvedeva LP https://youtu.be/nuKoGRn8Grw
Gracie Gold SP https://youtu.be/YC3gPmU7vE8
Ashley Wagner LP https://youtu.be/2gcAOtSDgcs

I thought it brings up an interesting conversation. Being a figure skater myself, I know how hard it is to come up with COMPLETELY new programs during the off season. Elite skaters off-season tends to be somewhat short on time, and you don't want to spend too much time choreographing programs.. you want to spend more time TRAINING them.


Evgenia - I would love to see a different genre and I'm not a fan of the program, but I don't think any of that matters if she keeps skating the way she is!
Gracie - well, they're both tangos.

I think all the ones we have commented on have some differences, but a lot of similarities.

Should skaters start preparing for the new season earlier, so they can have more time to choreograph ALL NEW programs??

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Holy Scam City Batman! We've been robbed!

Yes, as an audience member I feel cheated.

So 3 skaters got lazy in searching for new choreographers and suddenly we're facing an epidemic of "a lot of recycled programs"? Okay... :think:

Anyway, if it's not broke, why fix it? Evgenia's priority is to win, not to satisfy everyone's need for totally innovative and novel programs each season. Granted, I hate the new program's contrived concept and its has-been-so-overdone, now-just-trying-way-too-hard-to-be-artsy, Averbukhistic choreo...but she is still getting record scores. It's more of a problem with the choregrapher's lack of range than it is a problem with Evgenia's abilities IMO.

Not sure what Gracie's excuse is though...

Perhaps sometimes it's a financial issue? Saving money?

blue_idealist said:

Perhaps sometimes it's a financial issue? Saving money?

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I think the way would be much easier for the skaters to keep their consistency and to take less time to learn a new choreography.

Imagine said:

So 3 skaters got lazy in searching for new choreographers and suddenly we're facing an epidemic of "a lot of recycled programs"? Okay... :think:
:

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That's not what I was really trying to get at, so I apologize if it came out that way. There has been a lot of people complaining about many skaters but those 3 came to mind (and are the 3 that have youtube videos specifically to compare it.. I thought it would be good to have a discussion about those videos) I'm actually trying to point out that I understand why you use similar layouts multiple years. Look at Ashley, who has a new and fresh program and going off of the video, the only thing the same to me is the jumps layout. However, the footwork and spins are in different places and the emotion of the program is incredibly different than the last few. If the jumps layout works for you, there's really no reason to change it unless you master a new skill that is worth more points/more consistent than what you were doing.

Evgenia on the other hand, pretty much has the same program. While I think she'll be ok because of her consistency, you can also look up her Jr years and it was the same thing. They're all similar themes, footwork and spins are always the same, etc. I do think she can stretch herself.

Gracie asked for it when she (or her team) decided to do another tango. Instant comparison and not the best idea IMO.

Elite skaters are incredibly busy during the off season with shows and appearances, and choreo can take quite a bit of time depending on the skater and choreographer's personalities. I'm ok with similarities because it makes sense with the time frame they use - but when it's pretty much the same program, I feel like they should just do the program again.

Elite skaters might be busy in the off season with shows and appearances but isn't their first responsibility to their competitions? I have no clue why someone recycles a program but I don't think it's from laziness. I,for one, and truly sick of tangoes. They're right down there with Carmen in my opinion. But - it all comes down to whether the program is skated clean and with good PCS so I guess it doesn't really matter if its recycled or not.

sabinfire said:

My question is: why does it take so long? Skaters only have a few minutes worth of program, much of which is already eaten up with technical elements (like jumps and spins) which they already know the foundations for, and those few minutes are all they ever use for an entire year (sometimes two).

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The choreo to have, is quite simple, the choreo to master only comes over time.

You can compare it to walking. If you walk, then you do this in an automated process, a tiny kid, however, has to think about each step, which is why it looks so goofy if you watch the baby --> kid development cycle.

As a skater, the top skaters such as Medvedeva, Gracie ... will practice their choreo (parts of it) again and again, until and this is the ultimate goal with each choreo, it looks like an everydays job. Fluent, smooth and without any gaps, seemless transitions from element to element.

At pairs and dance, it´s even more work, as there the skaters have to connect as well, talking about alignment, blind change of hold in dance, come together after no touch and so on.

The full choreo can be done in minutes, it´s like writing a song, but that´s the easy job believe me what´s hard is getting that choreo into your head, so that it´s natural to do.

As a choreographer, the job is mostly to come up with something that the skater can portrait, show them what elements work best, connect everything, but the skater has to learn it, to not think about what happens and this is incredible tough, as every time you think, you lose the momentum and errors crawl in.

noskates said:

Elite skaters might be busy in the off season with shows and appearances but isn't their first responsibility to their competitions? .

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Shows bring money and sponsors, competitions alone won´t bring enough, especially if you don´t win.

@ topic

The choreo´s are different, but the trademarks are the same. This we see with Gracie, I believe she always has that one spiral in her programs, Medvedeva the turn with the leg up, Alaine the Mohawk entry or change of blade in a spin, Yulia the immense speed and so on. That being said, working with the same choreographer, can also lead into a specific style, some are more spaced up and do goofy programs, others are more lyrical ... But I also think, that the scoring system, limits skaters freedom a lot, at least this is the general feedback I got when talking to them.

Creative elements are often not high scoring or they are completely invalid.

I will not say it is entirely bad by definition
For example, something that didnt work one season could shine next season.
Or something that worked well can work even better.

Imho originality for the sake of originality and a different choreo just because it has to be different is not a good thing.
I rather see my fav skaters skating well to similar things over and over and not messing up because they tried something that doesn´t work for them.

andromache said:

Similar layouts don't bother me much at all - after all, layout of the elements has little to do with choreography/theme/mood of the program - but I do get disappointed seeing highly capable skaters utilize the same choreographic movements and types of music when they are in a place to be challenging themselves.

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To me this really hits the heart of the matter. Of course it would be nonsensical for Evgenia to change her jump layout when she has it down to a science to maximize points and she's also able to hit it perfectly nearly every time. If she changed it sure it might be nice for fans to see the 'variety' but it would do her no favors and there's no point in fixing something that is not broken.

However, the frustration and sense of oh boy, not this again IMO comes from there being no or very very minimal change in choreography, tone, and so on. If you do watch the side by side, as others have already said, Ashley's layout is also nearly identical to last year, but the whole program quite simply feels very different and not like something we've seen from her before. She has altered the mood, the footwork, the presentation style, even her extensions, and has even given us some nice variations in her spins. Sure, one can see she's doing the same jumps at the same time but it just doesn't matter, because they are obviously very different programs. It is very different than Evgenia's where she is literally doing identical everything nearly the whole time, with there occasionally being a second or two in delay between the one program and the other.

tulosai said:

To me this really hits the heart of the matter. Of course it would be nonsensical for Evgenia to change her jump layout when she has it down to a science to maximize points and she's also able to hit it perfectly nearly every time. If she changed it sure it might be nice for fans to see the 'variety' but it would do her no favors and there's no point in fixing something that is not broken.

However, the frustration and sense of oh boy, not this again IMO comes from there being no or very very minimal change in choreography, tone, and so on. If you do watch the side by side, as others have already said, Ashley's layout is also nearly identical to last year, but the whole program quite simply feels very different and not like something we've seen from her before. She has altered the mood, the footwork, the presentation style, even her extensions, and has even given us some nice variations in her spins. Sure, one can see she's doing the same jumps at the same time but it just doesn't matter, because they are obviously very different programs. It is very different than Evgenia's where she is literally doing identical everything nearly the whole time, with there occasionally being a second or two in delay between the one program and the other.

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Are skaters and/or their teams trying to get away with "tricking" fans when they do this, or is it more about the team trying to do what is best for the skater while helping their confidence? For example, with Gracie, I could understand that Lori and Frank want to give Gracie a "new" or "fresh" SP to feel good about while also keeping it about the same to maximize her chances for success. Since she reused an SP in the past after it had some great outings and she admitted it felt stale while using it the next season, I can understand the need to make it feel "new" for Gracie.