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THANK YOU!! IT is much better lutz than many of the poor technique example I have posted. WOW! I always have some special feeling for clockwise skater. :luv17:
Why ISU doesn't punish these jump cases
- Thread starter bestolen
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Probably it is tricky for the technical panel because they have to keep their eyes on the edge for the lutz/flip, as well as the toepick foot at the same time to decide whether it is "acceptable" toepick jump or "edge-picking". But if UR calls has several degree of "punishment", like for example if less than 1/4 UR it is acceptable and if more it is < and there is also << / downgrade; or how for flip and lutz there is clear wrong edge with (e) or just (!) as unclear edge, they could draw a line for the leniency of edge-takeoff in a toepick-assisted jump.
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Lots of reasonable, explicitly argued points in your post. Thank you. I thought about similar things but as English is not my first language it's harder for me to express it as well as you did. I do wonder now whether it's possible to learn triples after you hit puberty when you can only jump doubles before that? Can you learn adult person with reasonable athleticism tough technical elements with no access to coaching before? What is the limit?
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Thanks for posting this. Love it when he does a clockwise axel followed by an anti-clockwise axel at 2:15.
It sounds as though the sports science is concluding that triples and higher are extraordinarily difficult to obtain without at least one triple before peak growth and puberty.
But there have been exceptional adult skaters that have learned very difficult elements, including pairs skaters, that did not skate until their late teens.
The science of long term athlete development that the U.K., Canada and Australia are building into their sports identifies a few artistic and acrobatic sports that require early specialization. This means that a relatively high level of sport specific skills need to develop before peak growth and puberty. Figure skating, gymnastics, and diving top the list.
Here's a link to Skate Canada's long term development model, see the section on specialization on p. 8.
https://skatecanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Skate-Canada-LTAD-Model-EN.pdf
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- Jan 11, 2014
I came across this database recently (linked by someone on this forum) and I thought it was interesting to see the GOEs for 3Lz for both Men and Ladies for the 15-16 season:
Men: http://skatedb.net/modules/skateDB/index.php?page=element&element=3Lz&orderby=p500&full=1&cid=539
Ladies: http://skatedb.net/modules/skateDB/index.php?page=element&element=3Lz&orderby=p500&full=1&cid=538
In general, it seems like the ones with the better techniques tend to get the higher scores more consistently and if they don't (like Medvedeva - not gonna talk about the flutzing though, since that is on the tech panel), they satisfied enough GOE criteria to get higher GOEs. Those with worse technique naturally lead to jumps that are visibly less high/big and need to do much more to gain the GOEs (like tano-ing), which is an ok trade-off I guess. If you have the better technique, you can do the jumps more purely and do not need to do other things to gain the same amount of GOE, and if you don't, you have to work harder to get it. There doesn't seem to be too much need to analyze the take-off (which would take too long to review for each jump) when their effects can visibly affect the entire jumping pass.
At the end of the day, it's still better for the skaters to have better techniques because that leads to more beautiful jumps, so there's isn't a 'disincentive' for newer skaters to train the correct but more difficult technique that will last their entire careers.
For example, Yuzuru does his 3Lz as his 10th element (at least I think that's what the seq column means) and yet still scores very high GOEs. Without his great technique, that wouldn't be possible.
Men: http://skatedb.net/modules/skateDB/index.php?page=element&element=3Lz&orderby=p500&full=1&cid=539
Ladies: http://skatedb.net/modules/skateDB/index.php?page=element&element=3Lz&orderby=p500&full=1&cid=538
In general, it seems like the ones with the better techniques tend to get the higher scores more consistently and if they don't (like Medvedeva - not gonna talk about the flutzing though, since that is on the tech panel), they satisfied enough GOE criteria to get higher GOEs. Those with worse technique naturally lead to jumps that are visibly less high/big and need to do much more to gain the GOEs (like tano-ing), which is an ok trade-off I guess. If you have the better technique, you can do the jumps more purely and do not need to do other things to gain the same amount of GOE, and if you don't, you have to work harder to get it. There doesn't seem to be too much need to analyze the take-off (which would take too long to review for each jump) when their effects can visibly affect the entire jumping pass.
At the end of the day, it's still better for the skaters to have better techniques because that leads to more beautiful jumps, so there's isn't a 'disincentive' for newer skaters to train the correct but more difficult technique that will last their entire careers.
For example, Yuzuru does his 3Lz as his 10th element (at least I think that's what the seq column means) and yet still scores very high GOEs. Without his great technique, that wouldn't be possible.
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- Feb 13, 2014
Do you mind comparing Javi and Shoma's GOE for their lutz vs GOE for Han Yan and Kolyada's Lutz?
Javi and Shoma have very questionable 3lutz, and Han Yan and Kokyada have very good 3lz.
Yes, here it is http://gph.is/2ddh4x9
thanks for the answers
I somehow knew but I guess I just don't agree with it still being called a combo since there's a step in between which kinda invalidates the concept of "combination jump". Well, that's just me.
There was not a "step" in between. Her left foot never touched the ice in between. A step involves a transfer of weight/change of foot and invalidates the combo.
The ISU has decided that turns on one foot does not invalidate a combo, but it does get a smaller penalty.
Note that in the last 6.0 era guidelines for short program deductions, under Jump Combo, the penalty for "Step out of landing - 1st jump" was 0.3 and the penalty for "Three-turns between jumps" was 0.1. This is not a new distinction.
So yeah, it is just you.
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- Jan 11, 2014
You can look at the individual stats for each skater by going to their profiles and then expanding the specific jump:
Han Yan: http://skatedb.net/modules/skateDB/index.php?page=player&playerid=777
Javier: http://skatedb.net/modules/skateDB/index.php?page=player&playerid=379
Mikhail: http://skatedb.net/modules/skateDB/index.php?page=player&playerid=1328
Shoma: http://skatedb.net/modules/skateDB/index.php?page=player&playerid=699
It's difficult to directly compare average statistics for the GOEs since the number of times they perform it in competition is different and the jump can also be in combination etc. Javier and Han Yan mostly do it as combination jumps while Shoma exclusively does it as a single jump.
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- Feb 13, 2014
Look at this, Javi has highest GOE. So I disagree with the statement "skaters with better technique get better GOE".
Look at this lutz: Javi: http://imgur.com/OeZcyqA
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If you look at his 3Lz jump by itself, the only times he got above 1 GOE was last season's Worlds and Euros, which are quite subjective circumstances imo. He doesn't consistently get high GOEs. Kolyada and Han Yan do it more frequently with their 3Lz.
Thanks for pointing out the usefulness of skatedb for tracking scoring on jumps.:agree:
As I understand it, the existing disincentives come from the risks in fixing a poor technique that has been learned early.
Ideally, all skaters would learn great technique from the start, but as argued by others below, most elite skaters have some weak points.
Whatever the origin of poor technique for a particular skater ---- poor coaching early on, lack of training and conditioning to address certain relative physical weaknesses, or insufficient strictness in testing and judging standards for single and double jumps ---- once a technique is deep in body memory there are risks in taking it apart to fix it.
What kind of risks? here are a few that come to mind for me...
-Parents or federation expect continued progress, so support for a new coaching situation or funding may be at risk if time is taken to take apart a jump and retrain it
-skater may be discouraged, lose confidence
- falls and injuries, especially if there is pressure to rush the retraining
-skater may not reaquire the jump
So, as long as the penalty for incorrect technique or the benefit from excellence is considered minor at the senior level, I expect that we will continue to hear many coaches that take the view that "it's not worth it" to fix it.
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- Jan 11, 2014
I agree that figure skating, in general, is a sport that relies very heavily on techniques and habits formed at the very early stages, and it's up to the skaters and the coach to choose which habits or weakness they want to fix depending on how far they want to go. Skaters with bad techniques will always be limited by it in some way or another and the bad habits will eventually catch up to them, whether or not they are penalized enough right now. For example, Patrick's poor axel technique led him to have an error in every axel jumping pass during the Olympics, which is why he is trying to fix it now.
Skaters with lutz problems would never be able to do a quad lutz, which means that they will never have the advantage of doing the highest scoring element, will very likely throw away a couple of points every time they doing a 3Lz (more in Shoma's case if he flutzes), are less likely to do it in the second half to get the bonus etc. etc. I think the disincentives do add up if they really want to be the best.
I wasn't so keen on comparing average statistics (and if someone wants to do a more thorough analysis, feel free) but here is a VERY rough comparison of the average 3Lz scores. They are simply the average 3Lz (by itself) scores over the years based on the raw skatedb numbers, and doesn't adjust for the second half bonus, falls, changes in scoring over the years etc. so there's only so much you can take from them:
Javier: 5.39 -0.71 (3/17)
Shoma: 5.71 -0.42 (14/33)
Han Yan: 6.82 +0.35 (11/14)
Mikhail: 7.08 +0.8 (5/11)
Yuzuru: 6.82 +0.24 (27/28)
where the columns are the average total score, average GOE and the fraction of jumps in the 2nd half out of the total number of jumps executed.
Maybe there could be a positive GOE bullet point for "strong takeoff edge" or something like that. Would be especially useful for ladies' lutzes. Or loops and axels with zero skidding on the takeoff?
There is already a bullet point for delayed rotation, but we almost never see that with triples. (And with someone like Lu Chen, the delayed rotation often resulted in underrotation on the landing end.)
Delay could be emphasized for juniors who choose to do a double for the required jump out of steps in the short program -- but as long as triples are also allowed, should the junior short be offering more reward for showing excellent doubles or for attempting triples that my not yet be high quality?
Similarly, we might see delayed rotation in double axels by senior men. Should it be something to aspire to for guys who are having trouble mastering the triple axel?
There is already a bullet point for delayed rotation, but we almost never see that with triples. (And with someone like Lu Chen, the delayed rotation often resulted in underrotation on the landing end.)
Delay could be emphasized for juniors who choose to do a double for the required jump out of steps in the short program -- but as long as triples are also allowed, should the junior short be offering more reward for showing excellent doubles or for attempting triples that my not yet be high quality?
Similarly, we might see delayed rotation in double axels by senior men. Should it be something to aspire to for guys who are having trouble mastering the triple axel?
Intriging option IMO, thanks...
As a point of curiosity, in your view, could one of the two gentlemen in the following clip of SBS 3As warrant a positive for strong takeoff edge or delayed rotation, or is it just a matter of one having faster rotations than the other...?
https://mobile.twitter.com/SkateTSN/status/771754045300146176/video/1
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- Jan 28, 2014
There was not a "step" in between. Her left foot never touched the ice in between. A step involves a transfer of weight/change of foot and invalidates the combo.
The ISU has decided that turns on one foot does not invalidate a combo, but it does get a smaller penalty.
Note that in the last 6.0 era guidelines for short program deductions, under Jump Combo, the penalty for "Step out of landing - 1st jump" was 0.3 and the penalty for "Three-turns between jumps" was 0.1. This is not a new distinction.
So yeah, it is just you.
Thanks for the clarification.
In my mind, what I meant was turns. Not really steps technically. My bad.
I learn a lot from your posts.
