MK and the 3flip | Page 2 | Golden Skate

MK and the 3flip

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
In my opinion athlete´s "body of work" is mostly brought forward if a skater who has great possibilities (is really expected) to win in the Olympics and doesn´t.

In my opinion, a "body of work" is brought to light because a skater "doesn't" have to be an Oly gold medal holder to be regaled as "one of the best". Not just Michelle......there's Kirk Browning, Elvis, Paul Wylie, Todd Eldrege, Irina, Lloyd and Isabelle, the list goes on and on of great skaters with huge bodies of work who don't own an Oly gold........It isn't meant as an "excuse" why they didn't win the Oly gold or a "balm" to soothe their egos. It was one of many competitions and they didn't happen to win........42
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Jaana - I'm surprised at you. the Oly Gold does not mean the best in the World, it means the best that Night and only that Night. The following week could produce a whole different story with top tier skaters.

I think what Show is talking about is the cumulative performances of a particular skater over the years. I could add Punsaln and Swallow to Show's list and they have never won a major competition but their performances have been conistently outstanding, particularly as show skaters. Show and I are talking about the body of work not the medals. In Michelle's case, she has 10 years of outstanding skating.. I think Kulic could be considerred if he continues to skaate and with that new found style of blending east and west. We'll see.

I would not include Tara or Sarah because they do not have a true body of work. They came to the Olys quickly; took the gold and ran. One had a so so gig in show skating; the other went to school. Body of work doesn't operate that way. Yes, I know it can be explained why their careers were short but that does not fill the criteria for a body of work. Their laurels are the Oly Gold. Unfortunately, Oksana, another gold come quickly kinda went off track and thus really hasn't developed a body of work.

It's an interesting topic Show has started. I believe it is not a question of medals as it is audience appeal over a long period of time. If you watch the American Academy Awards, you will see they often honor an actor who never won an award but is considered by his peers to be worthy of a special honor. That's what this is all about.

Joe
 

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Aw Joe, kindred minds......thanks for the affirmation. We really took a left turn on this topic. Maybe a new thread might be entitled..."Body of work vs. the Oly Gold, which is the more difficult to own?" or something of that nature. I didn't mention all the wonderful skaters who have that elusive "body of work" and also own the OGM....Torville and Dean, G and G, Kat, Scott...........42
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
This is a little bit off topic, but do you think the lack of interest (at least in the U.S.) in the upcoming summer Olympic games will rub off on the 2006 winter games? The drugging scandal has decimated the U.S. team, and with the investigation still in progress it seems very likely that some winners will later have to forfeit their medals. Plus, many of the top U.S. athletes in team sports have declined invitations to participate, citing either security concerns or else they just don't care.

The idea of feeling honored to represent your country, rather than just tooting your own horn, seems to have fallen by the wayside altogether. :\

Mathman
 

BronzeisGolden

Medalist
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Mathman,

I think we will have to wait and see what happens at the Olympics this year. If the U.S. has a dismal performance, then interest in the 2006 Olympics may indeed be lost or lessened. I know that I have always looked at our Olympic athletes with such awe and admiration (hero worship I guess), and that this drugging scandal really does chip away at that image. But, there are still plenty of other great (drug free) American Olympians heading to Athens....I am psyched about our U.S. Gymnastics Team (even the men this year...which is surprising for me)!
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
I understand the importance of athlete´s "body of work", but in my opinion for that to be really awesome and great in eligible skating, it definetely must besides National and World titles include also one or maybe two Olympic gold medals.

If a skater wins a National title each year and the World title also each year for many years (without getting beaten at all), that is truly great "body of work", but in those competitions only, if that skater still lacks the win of an Olympic gold medal. It is not in my opinion a question of skater´s great appeal or popularity, it is a question with great "body of work" whether a skater manages to win everything there is or not.

Marjaana
 
Last edited:

Ogre Mage

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
I see "body of work" and "competitive success" as two different things which may or may not overlap. Usova & Zhulin, for instance, only own one major title -- 1993 Worlds -- but the quality of their work during their amateur years is excellent. Grishuk & Platov won a slew of major titles but I consider their body of work to be generally inferior to Usova & Zhulin. Sometimes, though, you have both -- Torvill & Dean compiled both many major titles as well as an outstanding body of work.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Well, I say phooey on the Olympics. They had two perfectly good chances to give Michelle a gold medal and they blew it both times. It they don't do right in 2006 I am not going to buy any of the sponsors' products, so there!

MM;)
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
Mathman said:
Well, I say phooey on the Olympics. They had two perfectly good chances to give Michelle a gold medal and they blew it both times. It they don't do right in 2006 I am not going to buy any of the sponsors' products, so there!

MM;)

Yeah, "they" had a chance of giving Michelle a gold medal and "they" blew it, LOL...
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Jaana said:
I understand the importance of athlete´s "body of work", but in my opinion for that to be really awesome and great in eligible skating, it definetely must besides National and World titles include also one or maybe two Olympic gold medals.

If a skater wins a National title each year and the World title also each year for many years (without getting beaten at all), that is truly great "body of work", but in those competitions only, if that skater still lacks the win of an Olympic gold medal. It is not in my opinion a question of skater´s great appeal or popularity, it is a question with great "body of work" whether a skater manages to win everything there is or not.

Marjaana

That would certainly be taken into consideration, but this is different from the Hall of Fame where what you said would definitely get the skater into that organization.

The Body of Work Award is a very special award that goes beyond medals although medals will be considered but not necessary. Otherwise the Body of Work Award would just repeat the Hall of Fame Award.

Joe
 

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I understand the importance of athlete´s "body of work", but in my opinion for that to be really awesome and great in eligible skating, it definetely must besides National and World titles include also one or maybe two Olympic gold medals.

If a skater wins a National title each year and the World title also each year for many years (without getting beaten at all), that is truly great "body of work", but in those competitions only, if that skater still lacks the win of an Olympic gold medal. It is not in my opinion a question of skater´s great appeal or popularity, it is a question with great "body of work" whether a skater manages to win everything there is or not.

Why must a skater win the OGM before "a body of work" be established? It doesn't make sense. Leo Politi and Bill Peet are two important writers of children's literature spanning decades. Neither has won the "Newberry" award (which might be considered the OGM of children's Lit.) Their body of work is impressive, very popular, and important, even without the Newberry........42
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
show 42 said:
Why must a skater win the OGM before "a body of work" be established? It doesn't make sense. (snip) .... body of work is impressive, very popular, and important, even without the Newberry........42

If we are speaking of sports, no Olympic win means that a skater lacks one title, the very ultimate title. In some other sports some other competition is seen as the most important, in tennis it is Wimbledon. If a tennis player has won everything else (no matter how many times), but not Wimbledon, it means that she/he lacks the ultimate title. Of course they are great athletes although that ultimate title is lacking, but they were greater if they had won that (Olympics, Wimbledon) too.

Marjaana
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Jaana said:
I understand the importance of athlete´s "body of work", but in my opinion for that to be really awesome and great in eligible skating, it definetely must besides National and World titles include also one or maybe two Olympic gold medals. Marjaana

Jaana, I believe you are not talking about beautiful skating but winning medals. Not every medal winner was a beautiful skater. For example, in that controversal Olys where Poetz won over linda, the beautiful skater was Bielman. A gold medal did not make Poetz a more beautiful skater than Bielman. Poetz just happened to be more competititve that night.

What you are describing is a history of medall winning. This is already covered in the Hall of Fame criteria. Maybe Poetz will be entered in it at some future time for the gold medal at an Olys. But beautiful skating she did not have, in anyone's opinion. Bielman did and she continues to astound audiences when she skates in Europe, and of course, there is that spin that made her famous. but she does not have a gold medal anywhere. So what?

Entry into the Body of Work award would have to be decided by a panel of judges who have the highest integrity in the love for the sport. That means no one from a Federation. I would even like the skaters, and coaches nominate one skater each year, and repeat the nomination if the skater did not win the award. But I would leave the criteria to others. For me, it's beautiful skating over a lengthy period in eligible or show or both skating

It's totally different from what you are describing but I agree with you on who gets into the Hall of Fame as far as skaters are concerned..

Joe
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Does Sarah Hughes belong in the Hall of Fame, or should she be listed as a skater with an outstanding Body of Work, just because she won the OGM?

I say absolutely not. Sarah had one terrific skate on one night, but the rest of her resume isn't anywhere near on a par with her Olympic win. As a Senior skater, she actually won only three International competitions: Skate Canada 2001, the 2002 Olympics (in both cases, top competitors Kwan and Slutskaya did not skate well); and a "B" international, the Vienna Cup, in 1999. Sarah competed at four World Championships, where she finished 3rd (2001), 5th (2000), 6th (2003) and 7th (1999). She competed in 7 GP events and won just one, with three 2nds, two 3rds and a 4th; she made it to two GPFs, in 2001 and 2002, and finishing 3rd behind Kwan and Slutskaya both times.

On the National level, as a Senior, Sarah never won the US Championship, finishing 2nd (2001, 2003), 3rd (2002) and 4th (1999). As a Junior, Sarah was the 1998 US Junior champion, and finished 2nd at Junior Worlds that year. She competed in two JGP event, finishing 2nd, and finished 2nd in her only JGPF.
 

nymkfan51

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
If only someone with an Olympic gold medal can be looked at to have an awesome body of work, well that effectively eliminates the majority of the skating world. Thanks goodness most people don't look at it that way.
The fact is, Michelle's body of work is in a league of it's own. If she never won another medal, she would still be considered as one of the greatest to ever skate competitively ... OGM or not.
 

BronzeisGolden

Medalist
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I don't know if Sarah's Hughes's "body of work" belongs in the Hall of Fame...but it certainly belongs somewhere. She was a consistent skater that gave us quite a few very respectable, solid skates. She gave wonderful performances (yes...even with the technique flaws) at the 2001 Worlds and the 2002 Grand Prix Final. She also was great at the 2001 and 2002 U.S. Nationals. I've never been a massive fan of Sarah's skating, but I always liked it and felt she was such a commendable, reliable athlete. She had a pleasing presence on the ice and a lot of gumption and I will always remember that.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I agree that Sarah was a good athlete, but she was not a great athlete, and certainly not an outstanding one. She was reliable, dependable, and always a podium competitor. But the only really thrilling performance I can recall was her SLC FS. The rest of the time, she always held back and didn't give her all as she did that night.
 

Fossi

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Sarah will go down in history as one of the most consistent skaters of her time. Her 3/3's were beauties. Some whine and say she "cheated" them. Irina cheated hers when she very rarely landed them. Tara's were said to be cheated at times. How many other skaters are even attempting them? So what if she cheated them a few times.
We have people that give Sasha Cohen credit for 3/3's when she 2 foots the landings, but Sarah gets no credit for her accomplishments because someone thinks she underrotated the jumps?
Michelle's were nice, but where are they now? And Sasha has only landed one and it was very iffy.
I'm sorry to come off rude. I am just frustrated at some of the double standards in the skating world.
Sarah was a great skater. She won when it counted. The other three crumpled under the pressure. Sarah went out, and got it done.
I don't care if she never gets into the Hall of Fame. She will always be in MY Hall of Fame. :love:
 
Top