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Thread: MK and the 3flip

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    Although Michelle's 3flip in her 98 Oly LP was not picture perfect, it was a clean, landed jump. Iin 2002 it was another story. The lack of 3-3 certainly hurt her in 98 against Tara's 3loop-3loop combo. However, Tara's jump technique and artistry were no match for Michelle. IMO the reason MK lost was the skating order.
    I watched my videotapes from the 1998 and 2002 Olympics. Michelle's triple flip from Nagano was landed a bit roughly, but otherwise, she skated a clean long program. She looked a little tight and tentative, but she landed all of her triples, and her choreography was beautiful. Tara Lipinski was no match to Michelle, artistically, but she (Tara) landed a great triple loop/triple loop combination, and she finished her program with another triple combination. She won on the basis of higher technical content.

    HOWEVER, I agree with Vash01 that had Michelle skated after Tara at Nagano, the result might have been different. The judges might still have awarded Michelle 5.8s instead of those 5.7s for technical, and, perhaps she would have received a solid string of 5.9s for presentation. Lipinski had greatly improved her artistry, but she was an ingenue, compared to Kwan.

    Salt Lake was another story. Michelle fell on her triple flip, and that pretty much sealed her fate. Had she landed a triple toe/triple toe, perhaps she would have managed to finish second in the long program, ahead of Slutskaya, and that would have won Michelle the gold medal. On the other hand, Michelle skated before Slutskaya, so the judges were probably saving marks to award to Irina.
    Remember that three of the judges gave Slutskaya 5.9s for technical? How in blazes did that happen? Irina landed her triple flip way forward, she made several other mistakes, and she did not land a triple/triple. Biased judging!

  2. #17
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    If they skated as they did but Michelle skated after Tara by about 3 to 4 slots, I think Michelle would have got a slew of 6.0's for presentation. ITA about the skate order thing.

    I'm not even going there over 2002 - way too painful still

  3. #18
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    This is why one must look at an athlete's "body of work" and not an individual skating event, even though it is the Olympics. If placement in skating and biased juding can determine the gold medal, what does it say? Michelle and Irina are wonderful skaters with resumes to die for........that should be enough......42

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by show 42
    This is why one must look at an athlete's "body of work" and not an individual skating event, even though it is the Olympics. If placement in skating and biased juding can determine the gold medal, what does it say? Michelle and Irina are wonderful skaters with resumes to die for........that should be enough......42
    Definitely agree with you, Show. And the Hall of Fame doesn't do it. There should be a special award for the 'body of work' which should not be easily awarded as is entry into the Hall of Fame.

    It could be named after the first pioneer in figure skating. I think it was a Brit. Submission of candidates could be made with full explanation of the reasons this skater has an excellent body of work. The Panel of Judges should consist of l each from N.America, S.America, Australia, China, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, Africa and should change every five years. the award could be announced publicly on the final day of a Worlds. It will not be necessary for the judges to award a skater every year.

    Lots of work needed for the above :( . In the meantime, we can name our own skaters to the "Sonia Henie Award" for distinguished skating over a period of not less than 10 years.

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by show 42
    This is why one must look at an athlete's "body of work" and not an individual skating event, even though it is the Olympics. If placement in skating and biased juding can determine the gold medal, what does it say? Michelle and Irina are wonderful skaters with resumes to die for........that should be enough......42
    I would say that if Michelle had skated in Nagano the way she can do, she would have won, what ever the skating order may be. I very much doubt that there was biased judging for Tara..., another US skater. In my opinion athlete´s "body of work" is mostly brought forward if a skater who has great possibilities (is really expected) to win in the Olympics and doesn´t. Maybe the third time will be the right one for Michelle?

    Marjaana
    Last edited by Jaana; 07-26-2004 at 09:41 AM.

  6. #21
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    In my opinion athlete´s "body of work" is mostly brought forward if a skater who has great possibilities (is really expected) to win in the Olympics and doesn´t.
    In my opinion, a "body of work" is brought to light because a skater "doesn't" have to be an Oly gold medal holder to be regaled as "one of the best". Not just Michelle......there's Kirk Browning, Elvis, Paul Wylie, Todd Eldrege, Irina, Lloyd and Isabelle, the list goes on and on of great skaters with huge bodies of work who don't own an Oly gold........It isn't meant as an "excuse" why they didn't win the Oly gold or a "balm" to soothe their egos. It was one of many competitions and they didn't happen to win........42

  7. #22
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    Jaana - I'm surprised at you. the Oly Gold does not mean the best in the World, it means the best that Night and only that Night. The following week could produce a whole different story with top tier skaters.

    I think what Show is talking about is the cumulative performances of a particular skater over the years. I could add Punsaln and Swallow to Show's list and they have never won a major competition but their performances have been conistently outstanding, particularly as show skaters. Show and I are talking about the body of work not the medals. In Michelle's case, she has 10 years of outstanding skating.. I think Kulic could be considerred if he continues to skaate and with that new found style of blending east and west. We'll see.

    I would not include Tara or Sarah because they do not have a true body of work. They came to the Olys quickly; took the gold and ran. One had a so so gig in show skating; the other went to school. Body of work doesn't operate that way. Yes, I know it can be explained why their careers were short but that does not fill the criteria for a body of work. Their laurels are the Oly Gold. Unfortunately, Oksana, another gold come quickly kinda went off track and thus really hasn't developed a body of work.

    It's an interesting topic Show has started. I believe it is not a question of medals as it is audience appeal over a long period of time. If you watch the American Academy Awards, you will see they often honor an actor who never won an award but is considered by his peers to be worthy of a special honor. That's what this is all about.

    Joe

  8. #23
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    Aw Joe, kindred minds......thanks for the affirmation. We really took a left turn on this topic. Maybe a new thread might be entitled..."Body of work vs. the Oly Gold, which is the more difficult to own?" or something of that nature. I didn't mention all the wonderful skaters who have that elusive "body of work" and also own the OGM....Torville and Dean, G and G, Kat, Scott...........42

  9. #24
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    This is a little bit off topic, but do you think the lack of interest (at least in the U.S.) in the upcoming summer Olympic games will rub off on the 2006 winter games? The drugging scandal has decimated the U.S. team, and with the investigation still in progress it seems very likely that some winners will later have to forfeit their medals. Plus, many of the top U.S. athletes in team sports have declined invitations to participate, citing either security concerns or else they just don't care.

    The idea of feeling honored to represent your country, rather than just tooting your own horn, seems to have fallen by the wayside altogether. :\

    Mathman

  10. #25
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    Mathman,

    I think we will have to wait and see what happens at the Olympics this year. If the U.S. has a dismal performance, then interest in the 2006 Olympics may indeed be lost or lessened. I know that I have always looked at our Olympic athletes with such awe and admiration (hero worship I guess), and that this drugging scandal really does chip away at that image. But, there are still plenty of other great (drug free) American Olympians heading to Athens....I am psyched about our U.S. Gymnastics Team (even the men this year...which is surprising for me)!

  11. #26
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    I understand the importance of athlete´s "body of work", but in my opinion for that to be really awesome and great in eligible skating, it definetely must besides National and World titles include also one or maybe two Olympic gold medals.

    If a skater wins a National title each year and the World title also each year for many years (without getting beaten at all), that is truly great "body of work", but in those competitions only, if that skater still lacks the win of an Olympic gold medal. It is not in my opinion a question of skater´s great appeal or popularity, it is a question with great "body of work" whether a skater manages to win everything there is or not.

    Marjaana
    Last edited by Jaana; 07-27-2004 at 02:12 AM.

  12. #27
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    I see "body of work" and "competitive success" as two different things which may or may not overlap. Usova & Zhulin, for instance, only own one major title -- 1993 Worlds -- but the quality of their work during their amateur years is excellent. Grishuk & Platov won a slew of major titles but I consider their body of work to be generally inferior to Usova & Zhulin. Sometimes, though, you have both -- Torvill & Dean compiled both many major titles as well as an outstanding body of work.

  13. #28
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Well, I say phooey on the Olympics. They had two perfectly good chances to give Michelle a gold medal and they blew it both times. It they don't do right in 2006 I am not going to buy any of the sponsors' products, so there!

    MM

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Well, I say phooey on the Olympics. They had two perfectly good chances to give Michelle a gold medal and they blew it both times. It they don't do right in 2006 I am not going to buy any of the sponsors' products, so there!

    MM
    Yeah, "they" had a chance of giving Michelle a gold medal and "they" blew it, LOL...

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana
    I understand the importance of athlete´s "body of work", but in my opinion for that to be really awesome and great in eligible skating, it definetely must besides National and World titles include also one or maybe two Olympic gold medals.

    If a skater wins a National title each year and the World title also each year for many years (without getting beaten at all), that is truly great "body of work", but in those competitions only, if that skater still lacks the win of an Olympic gold medal. It is not in my opinion a question of skater´s great appeal or popularity, it is a question with great "body of work" whether a skater manages to win everything there is or not.

    Marjaana
    That would certainly be taken into consideration, but this is different from the Hall of Fame where what you said would definitely get the skater into that organization.

    The Body of Work Award is a very special award that goes beyond medals although medals will be considered but not necessary. Otherwise the Body of Work Award would just repeat the Hall of Fame Award.

    Joe

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