Motivations of skaters ranked 5-10 in US?

This question came to mind after considering the very competitive nature of the US Men's skating scene this year.

What keeps skaters going who are ranked in the lower half of the top 10 at Nationals?

How do they support themselves financially?

What are their goals if a World Team is perhaps unlikely, from an objective, score-based standpoint?

Naming names isn't ideal, but just for clarity's sake, I'm imagining skaters such as Courtney Hicks and Timothy Dolensky.

Obviously to maintain a complete and viable figure skating scene in the US, we need to have a pool of skaters of a certain size. To maintain a presence in international competitions (Senior Bs, Grand Prix) we need more than just the top 3 from Nationals.

I just feel that it must be somewhat frustrating and also financially draining to be one of those skaters who is in this position, and I'm curious if any of you have insights into how these skaters make it work. The continued presence of these skaters indicates that they do make it work, and that it's a fulfilling process for them, which I think is commendable.

qwerty said:

This question came to mind after considering the very competitive nature of the US Men's skating scene this year.

What keeps skaters going who are ranked in the lower half of the top 10 at Nationals?

How do they support themselves financially?

What are their goals if a World Team is perhaps unlikely, from an objective, score-based standpoint?

Naming names isn't ideal, but just for clarity's sake, I'm imagining skaters such as Courtney Hicks and Timothy Dolensky.

Obviously to maintain a complete and viable figure skating scene in the US, we need to have a pool of skaters of a certain size. To maintain a presence in international competitions (Senior Bs, Grand Prix) we need more than just the top 3 from Nationals.

I just feel that it must be somewhat frustrating and also financially draining to be one of those skaters who is in this position, and I'm curious if any of you have insights into how these skaters make it work. The continued presence of these skaters indicates that they do make it work, and that it's a fulfilling process for them, which I think is commendable.

Click to expand...

Delicate and interesting topic.

And I think that it is relevant for other countries that have a large depth of field. Plushenko has commented that in countries with world level competitiveness, it's hard for skaters to even "get out of the country".

But it's exactly that depth that brings those countries the strength to put skaters on the World and Olympic podiums.

Russia seems to be sustaining the profile and development of its upper level skaters not only with funding, but by sending them to many, many competitions beyond the Grand Prix events. Every Challenger event through to December is well represented by Russia, and many of the other European ISU accredited international competitions as well. This develops skill and consistency in competition, increases profile.

Could this be a solution to support the development of skaters in other federations? Would other senior skaters be able to gain more funding from sponsors or kick-start campaigns if they had a chance to show themselves on the senior B and C circuit? How about funding from other levels of government.....In Canada, some provinces provide bursary funding to junior and senior athletes who are not getting federal funding as national team members....but competing and representing Canada internationally is definitely one of the key considerations for eligibility. Are there US states that do something similar?

There are major barriers to getting next tier down skaters international experience and exposure however....Canada and the US, other posters have noted that the even attending the European Challenger events takes significant time and travel costs. So, USFSA and Skate Canada are not sending their skaters to as many as they might. Take a look at the senior entrants for the Warsaw Cup and the Talinn Trophy....for the North Americans it is as if the Challenger Senior B series ends at Finlandia.

But there are three more events after Finlandia, and a trophy and prize money to be won in each discipline for those who come out on top after two or more Challenger events. The US seems to be trying to get its top Ice Dance teams to more than one Challenger, as there is a need to get the judges exposed to the programs prior to GP season, and to tune up the programs in response to feedback. But most of the US men, ladies and pairs only got 1 Challenger event. And for Canada, one Challenger event seems the rule across the board....

Challenger standings lists are found here....http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pair-skating-and-ice-dance/series/isu-challenger-series

At this point, we have two North American Challenger events, and Lake Placid Ice Dance. There are also a few summer events in Canada and the US that are jointly accredited by the two federations that attract a number of senior skaters and sometimes a few Europeans [e.g. Skate Detroit] and provide opportunity for strength-on-strength competition. But these latter ones are not ISU accredited.

Mexico has initiated an ISU accredited event, but the scores didn't count for TES as the rink was not large enough...But it would be great to have another ISU accredited international within reach...

Recognize that there are many other factors listed in the OP.......but definitely want to put the marker down regarding the need for opportunities for an appropriate level of competition.

I just want to point out that Grant Hochstein is 26 (so definitely not at the beginning of his senior career), placed 9th at Nationals in 2015, and went on to compete at Worlds in 2016. Yayyyyy Grant!

He's probably more of an exception, but still - those 5-10 ranked athletes do have achievable goals.

It's tough for a lot of them. Besides the tremendous financial costs, most skaters struggle with minor, ongoing injuries and lack of motivation. A lot of skaters keep going, I think in part, because they will have occasional good results: Mariah did very well this weekend, Mirai recently won a Senior B, and Courtney beat Mao and Ashley at NHK last year. For these skaters, there is always an outside chance for a world team if someone ranked higher gets injured, as we saw last year. Making a world team is an unlikely goal, but not outside the realm of possibilities (especially with Polina focusing on school this year). Getting to travel around the world to compete in GP and Sr B events is also a nice perk for being ranking inside the top 10 US women.

And Mirai won the Four Continents silver this year :yay:.

How skaters comparable to Dolensky are able to fully fund their training is a good question.

I think skaters set realistic goals for themselves. Gracie's twin, Carly Gold, was always aware of her abilities relative to Gracie and her goal was to make it to Nationals. She seemed very happy skating and ended up achieving her goal.

Courtney Hicks did very well at NHK last year, I think a lot of people thought she had a chance for a spot at Worlds.

Another example is Kseniya Ponomaryova and Oleg Altukhov who were 11th at U.S. Nationals. Their goal is to represent the U.S. internationally.

I think they are also just really passionate about the sport as well. While it's probably very difficult to get funding and results are not ideal, I think they would be rather be skating than doing anything else.

There's such a fine line between "Staying too long at the fair" and Quitting. It really depends on a skaters motivation. I danced professionally for much longer than my peers because I loved it. Unfortunately, Like skating, it's expensive to train as a dancer and even more expensive to travel to big auditions. I remember traveling from California to New York to audition for Chaka Kahn's Love Of A Lifetime and though I got the job, it was expensive. Living in Ca. you take a risk when you travel that far and if you don't have an agent or sponsors, it's nearly impossible to be successful. You also have to take living expenses into account. L.A. and especially New York are very expensive places to live.

The most difficult thing to deal with as you get older is keeping your sponsors as younger and more viable skaters enter the arena. You start to look over shoulder and wonder if the "New Kid" is going to steal your spot on the team. Think about Jeremy Abbott......If his comeback is successful, someone who's been to Worlds is going to be bumped off the team. Adam, Jason, Max, Grant, Ross, Nathan, Alexander Johnson, Shotaro Omori, and possibly Ricky. They all have a shot and we have some good Junior Men on the way up.

Re funding:

I think many of them coach lower level skaters, if well into their 20s. Most of the ladies singles skaters who are still competing and not at world team level are younger than that, so fewer of them are earning their own living yet.

If parents are providing most of the funding, there may come a time when they have to choose between college and skating. Thus more skaters drop out of competition in their late teens/early 20s than stay in, unless they're already successful enough to be getting prize money, USOC funding, significant envelope funding, endorsements, paid performing opportunities, etc.

Some skaters get some private/corporate sponsorship.

I think everyone has different motivations. I mean, look at Sean Rabbitt--his big goal was to be in the International Selection Pool. Then he actually got an international, won a medal, and now he's gotten several other internationals. He's as happy as a clam, and one can't help but be thrilled for him. I think it's extremely unlikely he's ever going to worlds, but that doesn't seem to be his goal and he seems to be very happy.

Obviously, at that point, everyone is in it because they actually love it. And not everyone has "win a medal at worlds" as their only goal, or even as a goal. You know, if you're ranking 10th and you're getting senior Bs and you get maybe a gp sub or you get a jgp or junior worlds once or twice and then you head off to college... you've done good work. You've had a moderately successful career. You've traveled the world, you've learned lots of invaluable skills, you've gotten experiences that most people never get... why not do it?

The people I have a harder time understanding are the older pairs or dance teams that are obviously sacrificing everything financially for something which quite honestly doesn't seem worth it to me. The 20s is an importnat time to be doing school, building a career, starting your money growing. But it obviously is worth it to them, and as long as they're happy, who cares?

Princessroja said:

I think everyone has different motivations. I mean, look at Sean Rabbitt--his big goal was to be in the International Selection Pool. Then he actually got an international, won a medal, and now he's gotten several other internationals. He's as happy as a clam, and one can't help but be thrilled for him. I think it's extremely unlikely he's ever going to worlds, but that doesn't seem to be his goal and he seems to be very happy.

Obviously, at that point, everyone is in it because they actually love it. And not everyone has "win a medal at worlds" as their only goal, or even as a goal. You know, if you're ranking 10th and you're getting senior Bs and you get maybe a gp sub or you get a jgp or junior worlds once or twice and then you head off to college... you've done good work. You've had a moderately successful career. You've traveled the world, you've learned lots of invaluable skills, you've gotten experiences that most people never get... why not do it?

The people I have a harder time understanding are the older pairs or dance teams that are obviously sacrificing everything financially for something which quite honestly doesn't seem worth it to me. The 20s is an importnat time to be doing school, building a career, starting your money growing. But it obviously is worth it to them, and as long as they're happy, who cares?

Click to expand...

Many Canadian dance teams have split and retired this year...many to attend or complete university.

Some have wondered if the return of Virtue and Moir was the catalyst, but we've lost very many juniors who wouldn't have been looking for an Olympic berth before 2022. There's been a good deal of fan angst over this and the looming lack of up and coming teams that this presents.

TGee said:

Many Canadian dance teams have split and retired this year...many to attend or complete university.

Some have wondered if the return of Virtue and Moir was the catalyst, but we've lost very many juniors who wouldn't have been looking for an Olympic berth before 2022. There's been a good deal of fan angst over this and the looming lack of up and coming teams that this presents.

Click to expand...

Good point, I'd forgotten about the mass exodus of Canadian teams. I confess I was thinking about American teams... sorry, I should have specified!

Edit: I mean, I was thinking of a few specific American teams while writing, but I'm not going to name them for their sake. I find watching them delightful, though I think their chances of moving up in the skating world slim, and would hate to discourage them should they happen upon this page by accident. But I think the internal motivation has to be exceptionally strong for a not-strong older team to continue at such great personal/familial cost, financial and time-wise. There may simply not be the money or the drive to continue such huge sacrifices when they see the potential costs as less (re: Canadian teams). I hope that many teams grow into that gap soon, because I've noticed the implosion over the last few months and have been concerned.

These skaters probably feel great skating a relatively good program at competition, knowing that they worked really hard and put in a lot of effort. As far as adult hobbies go, I don't think it's any more expensive than say, model train making or painting.

It's really too bad figure skating is one of those sports that are seen as the property of child prodigies and professional athletes. Gymnastics and ballet have the same issue. But no one ever says, "why do average weightlifters go to the gym every day? why do average runners exercise so much? why do ballroom dancers spend so much of their free time twirling around? At best, they'll win a local competition. Most likely, the best hope they have is the middle of the pack."

brightphoton said:

These skaters probably feel great skating a relatively good program at competition, knowing that they worked really hard and put in a lot of effort. As far as adult hobbies go, I don't think it's any more expensive than say, model train making or painting.

Click to expand...

If you're talking about what it takes to be a top-10 singles skater in the US, then yes, it does get expensive even if no international competitions are involved. In fact competing internationally costs less than getting to Nationals, because the federation pays most of those expenses.

But yes, for singles skaters who have scaled back on their training for financial/time reasons or were never very competitive to begin with, continuing to train enough to maintain enough skills and stamina to skate a senior program, entering regionals and club competitions, can be rewarding and comparatively affordable.

For someone who they had top-10 potential at their peak, and are lucky in who they have to compete against, getting to Nationals (but probably placing low) on a lower budget might be possible, especially for men.

It has been easier for ice dancers at times, especially when compulsory dances were important (possible to maintain skills between partners) and the sizes of the fields were small. And many adult skaters focus on ice dance socially and/or competitively, though not at the standard national level.

I wouldn't say the same for pairs despite the small fields, because there are so many skills that need to be maintained and can only be practiced with a well-matched partner.

It may seem to us that they are not "top tier" skaters, but they are already top tier skaters. Being top 10 in the US is no mean feat. They are probably the star of their own rink and social circles.

It's better to go for your hobbies a little longer in your 20s, otherwise you get restless and sort of fed up with "reality" turning 30. True story of my life. These skaters all have great coaching careers ahead. There is nothing to worry about.

brightphoton said:

These skaters probably feel great skating a relatively good program at competition, knowing that they worked really hard and put in a lot of effort. As far as adult hobbies go, I don't think it's any more expensive than say, model train making or painting.

It's really too bad figure skating is one of those sports that are seen as the property of child prodigies and professional athletes. Gymnastics and ballet have the same issue. But no one ever says, "why do average weightlifters go to the gym every day? why do average runners exercise so much? why do ballroom dancers spend so much of their free time twirling around? At best, they'll win a local competition. Most likely, the best hope they have is the middle of the pack."

Click to expand...

Uhm, I'm finding this a bit unexpected...

The thing is that ISU and the skating federations have done a great deal to advance figure skating as a life-long sport. Skating like gymnastics and diving are what are known as "early sport specific skill" requiring sports. It's not just a matter of favouring prodigies, for these kinds of sports the sports science is finding that it is very difficult and rare to be able to acquire the higher level technical achievements [say triple jumps or quads] if a certain level of skill is not acquired by peak growth and puberty.

ISU adult competitions are in their second decade and are very competitive. Adult pairs do true pairs elements including lifts and death spirals....There have been skaters into their 70s that compete at the annual ISU Worlds for adults.....But even Midori Ito stuck to doubles when she came back to ISU adult masters worlds a few years back....

But elite adult are different from the regular seniors track national and international competitions that this thread has been discussing. The 5-10th place skaters are on the regular ISU seniors track. The skaters that are the subject of this thread would be more analogous to the guys who are sacrificing their educations to play lower ranked minor league baseball, except they are paying for the privilege rather than being paid.

Here are a couple of examples of ISU adult Masters level....it's a bit of an eye opener if you aren't familiar. It's serious and elite, and it has a minimum age requirement, but there are no expectations or hopes of an Olympic future...

Jan Calnan, who has been on the top of the podium at Worlds several times in both ladies and pairs, is a really good example of the kind of thing that you are mentioning. Jan is a coach. She had retired from competitive skating in her teens because she could see that she was significantly behind her training mate Liz Manley, who became world champion. But when ISU created the adult category, Jan decided to return to competitive skating. She represents the US rather than Canada because when she started, Canada did not yet have it's adult program in place.

Mark Stanford who used to partner with Jan in pairs is an African American man from New York who never had the opportunity to learn to skate until he was 19. He is naturally talented clearly, but 19 is very late to start. He skated with Disney for some time and then became a coach and a competitive elite adult skater.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/...to-inspire-prompted-itos-return/#.WA9RrvkrJPY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGKeXkruxRM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGLBp718Rvc

http://www.skatinginbc.com/competit...al-adult-figure-skating-competition-vancouver

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3y16Oj0WWg

lyndichee said:

I think skaters set realistic goals for themselves. Gracie's twin, Carly Gold, was always aware of her abilities relative to Gracie and her goal was to make it to Nationals. She seemed very happy skating and ended up achieving her goal. ...

Click to expand...

Princessroja said:

I think everyone has different motivations. I mean, look at Sean Rabbitt--his big goal was to be in the International Selection Pool. Then he actually got an international, won a medal, and now he's gotten several other internationals. He's as happy as a clam, and one can't help but be thrilled for him. I think it's extremely unlikely he's ever going to worlds, but that doesn't seem to be his goal and he seems to be very happy.

Obviously, at that point, everyone is in it because they actually love it. And not everyone has "win a medal at worlds" as their only goal, or even as a goal. You know, if you're ranking 10th and you're getting senior Bs and you get maybe a gp sub or you get a jgp or junior worlds once or twice and then you head off to college... you've done good work. You've had a moderately successful career. You've traveled the world, you've learned lots of invaluable skills, you've gotten experiences that most people never get... why not do it? ...

Click to expand...

Thanks for mentioning Sean Rabbitt :luv17: and Carly Gold :yay:.
They and their love of skating have touched me just as much as skaters at the top of the rankings.

Adding to what Princess said about Sean:
He shared the podium with Hanyu, no less, at 2015 Autumn Classic (a non-Challenger last season) :dance2:.
It was Sean's first-ever international, and he was overjoyed simply to receive the assignment and to have the experience/privilege of representing the U.S.
(Even long-time members of Team USA continue to say that it always is thrilling to be introduced as "representing the United States" at international comps.)
In a fairy-tale ending, Sean surprised (and delighted) himself and everyone else by bringing home the bronze .
Some dreams come true -- another example being Carly's to compete at Nationals :yay:.

---

gkelly said:

... USOC funding ...

Click to expand...

gkelly, can you tell us more about USOC funding, please?
I am vaguely aware that Olympic medalists receive bonus money from the USOC?
Are Olympic hopefuls eligible for USOC funding??
And/or Olympians who are non-medalists??

(Off topic: Thx for your many informative posts over many threads. I learn a lot from you. )

---

TGee said:

... Take a look at the senior entrants for the Warsaw Cup and the Talinn Trophy....for the North Americans it is as if the Challenger Senior B series ends at Finlandia.

But there are three more events after Finlandia, and a trophy and prize money to be won in each discipline for those who come out on top after two or more Challenger events.

Click to expand...

Setting the record straight re USFS and Challengers:

ice coverage said:

Setting the record straight re USFS and Challengers:

- Last season, USFS sent four entries (one per discipline) to Tallinn Trophy, two of whom won medals (Max Aaron gold, Tyler Pierce bronze).
It was Max's second of two Challengers, and he placed second (behind Jason) in the overall Challenger series, earning some prize money.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/story?id=89746&menu=TeamUSA
http://www.isuresults.com/events/cs2015/csmen.htm​

In addition, USFS sent seven entries to Ice Challenge, five of whom won medals (three of which were gold).
Plus nine entries to Golden Spin, four of whom won medals.

All told, USFS sent skaters to seven Challengers total (incl. three post-Finlandia Challengers), plus Autumn Classic.

- Based on the placeholder slots on the USFS assignments chart for 2016-17, looks as if it is planning to send skaters to all three of the remaining Challengers: Warsaw, Tallinn, and Golden Spin.

http://usfigureskating.org/story?id=84032&menu=TeamUSA​

If so, then USFS will have sent skaters to all nine Challenger events in this year's series.​

Click to expand...

Interesting, I didn't realize that there was a placeholder's list and didn't see the US on the list for the next Challenger on the ISU site.

It's great if USFSA is maximising the Challenger series. On the ISU thread, Mango and I both expressing a desire for more ISU competitions in North America.

It sounds as though Skate Canada is relatively speaking, not doing as much as it can to get skaters below the top 5 placed national team members to as many ISU events as are available...And on the funding side, the USFSA sounds like it has a tiered level of funding that at least gives something to the 5-10 ranked skaters. This isn't as realistic an option for Skate Canada as carding is based on Sport Canada's funding requirements for all national level sports teams.

A more extreme example would be waiters in LA or NY waiting for their big acting/singing break. They aren't even in the top 10 position.
Sometime if it's your passion, you should go for it.
I think it can be rewarding for top 5-10 skaters because as long as your name recognition is there, you can potentially go into coaching. A known coach will beat out unknown coach any day.

ice coverage said:

gkelly, can you tell us more about USOC funding, please?
I am vaguely aware that Olympic medalists receive bonus money from the USOC?
Are Olympic hopefuls eligible for USOC funding??
And/or Olympians who are non-medalists??

Click to expand...

I don't know much about it, just that at some points I had heard mention of skaters with a good chance of qualifying for the next Olympics receiving funding.

I did a quick search and these are the most relevant links I could find:

http://iceskatingresources.org/AthleteFundingOpportunities.pdf
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/PET Reimbursement Request Form.pdf
http://www.teamusa.org/

Details probably change every few years, so I have no idea what is or is not currently valid.

FlattFan said:

I think it can be rewarding for top 5-10 skaters because as long as your name recognition is there, you can potentially go into coaching. A known coach will beat out unknown coach any day.

Click to expand...

Coaching successfully requires a much different skill set than being an elite competitor. Very few prominent coaches were top competitors in their skating division. Maybe it's because successful skaters have a single view of the right way to approach skating because that method worked for them?