Your opinion on Skate Canada

psusanne said:

I think it has been worse in the past than it is now.
I agree with the SC results (the ranking, I don't care about the actual points) overall, especially with the Ice Dance results because it matched my predictions.

And I want to mention that I appreciate Hanyu falling so gracefully on his quad loops. But I'm still not sure wether I want him doing quad loops, 3 quads and 2 triple axels are enough for me in the FS. I want those men to be able to keep the performance level up.

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I didn't see the protocols but was his fall on the knee considered a fall or a negative grade of execution - though with Hanyu it might be seen as positive it is amazing how his falls can be so graceful. i am still worried about injuries and flawed performances and losing choreography because of the push for quads.

Ladskater said:

I forgot to say. Hanyu had a poor short program skate and landed in 4th behind Chan who was in 1st place and as Tracy Wilson stated had Hanyu landed his 4th quad - the quad Lutz he would have won the gold - no biased opinion there or judging. Perhaps Hanyu should have held back on the quad Lutz and not been so ambitious. Just saying...

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Could have would have should. What if Chan had not popped all those jumps forget the two quads he left out or fell on. I am no expert but those quads are worth so so so much even if you fall I can see why people try them as long as they can rotate. Depending on your lay out a fall on a quad can garner more than other jumps. The problem is I see more quads means less choreo and more stalking of jumps and less energy.

Astrid56 said:

I hope you're able to see what I'm trying to show. I don't know how to do 'table'.

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Here you go. How did you calculate the ordinals though?

rosy14 said:

Last year W/P won and C/B were third, no Russians on podium

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C/B did not compete at CoR last year. There was a Russian dance team on the podium; Sin/Kat took the bronze.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/gprus2015/CAT004RS.HTM

Sydney Rose said:

That would save me a lot of money because no way am I going to France for a GP competition, even one with the amazing Hanyu.

Going to SA concerns me because of the time of year (weather concerns, holiday travelers) and the lack of a major airport in Lake Placid. It would be much easier for me to fly to Regina for SC but . . . Regina?

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I hope you like watermelon. They are known in Saskatchewan for wearing watermelons on their heads. Hope there are no fruit flies though.

chuckm said:

Question: what is with Kaetlyn's costume in the FS? When she came out I thought she'd changed her FS to Carmen. Her flowered springtime costume is all wrong for La Boheme (most of the opera takes place in the winter), and doesn't suit the character of Mimi, whose aria is the first music she skates to. It might have been OK for the character of Musetta (the second aria) with perhaps a fur jacket thrown over it, but the flower in the hair is wrong for both characters. The final music cut is Mimi's death aria when she dies of consumption (TB) in the dead of winter, and the flowered dress there just looks so WRONG.

I just wish that when skaters use opera music they would buy a copy of the libretto and do some research, or at the very least look the opera up on WIKIPEDIA. I felt the same way two years ago when Mirai took a (bad) stab at Madame Butterfly (pun intended).

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To be honest very few skaters really know the story behind their music other than what they are fed. Sad but true. Most of the stuff that comes out of their mouth is pure PR. ie. We enjoy skating with our main competitors because it motivates us to be better. This music speaks to my sould, its a departure for us as we have matured and a re a new phase of life, I got my hair cut because I am a new woman and have progressed....while this injury has been challenging it has allowed me time off to focus on why I enjoy skating and become hungrier to return on the ice which makes me a better skater and competitor....

I went to Skate Canada live for the Free Skate events, so I will share my opinions and experiences here. Although I saw all events, I will mainly only talk about the Ladies and Men...

Ladies: Medvedeva - She was solid as expected but not the best from her for sure. She jumped the 3S-3T literally where I was sitting, and it was clear as day that the 3T was UR. Too bad it didn't get called... As for the actual program, I was bored.... The beginning and the ending were somewhat captivating (although too overdone for my taste), but the core of the program... All she did was beautifully flail her arms and then go from jump to jump. My mom came along with me to watch this event, and even she (not too knowledgeable about skating) said that Medvedeva's program didn't do anything for her. Despite going clean, many people did not give Medvedeva a standing O, which is indicative that her program was probably not that great to many people's eyes.

Osmond - Clearly the most expressive and the fastest of all the competitors. She was somewhat unpolished/ wild in some parts of her program, but overall, she presented pretty well. Her jumps are huge! Too bad about the fall on the 3Lo. I actually thought she was going to finish the program without making a huge mistake, but I guess I jinxed it... Yikes. As for her score, that was just too, too high. With inflation already in my mind, I was expecting a 128, maybe a 129 if lucky. I was shocked to see 132...

Satoko - I usually like Satoko's presentation when watching from home, but at the arena, I was surprised that I wasn't as drawn to her skating... I don't know why, maybe it's because of her small jumps or her height or something.... But she just didn't leave an impact. She did land all her jumps (albeit horrible technique and prerotation/UR) and spin very, very well (people were amazed with her layback), but overall, I just felt the program was not as memorable as I had imagined it to be. She seemed slower live too... The two women who were sitting next to me were playing Candy Crush when she was performing, so...... Surprised about the score though! I expected near 140...

Elizaveta - Her jumping technique is very solid as opposed to Satoko/ Evgenia. It's clear that she gets all 3 revolutions in the air, and when she lands the jumps, there is no cheat. However, her program was very, very flat, and her speed was so slow. To the point I wanted to push her to go faster. Her arm movements are quite unique. I gotta give her that.

Alaine - This girl is fast, and her 3Lz-3T combo was huge. However, her flip was very obviously done on the outside edge, and some parts of the program seemed rough and unpolished. It's good to see her improvement though. Brian Orser really is the real deal.

Rika - I was expecting more from Rika to be honest. She is not nearly as fast as I had imagined her to be, and her program was dull and unmemorable. Most of her jumps did look a little iffy. However, I was not expecting the tech panel to rip her apart like that... I was still expecting a score around 115. 105 was harsh. But yes, presentation-wise, she has a long way to go... Her posture needs A LOT of work too.

Da Bin - Da Bin was solid overall. Her jumps (when clean) are pretty good. Not necessarily too high in height but not that low either. Her presentation has clearly improved, and her speed is not too slow (she was much faster than Joshi who I really, really, really wanted to push). Her second 3Lz, however, was clearly UR. She needs to give more face (although she has improved a lot compared to her performances in the past). She needs to skate bigger if she wants to compete with the big dogs.

Na Hyun - She is such an elegant skater. The ladies behind me were praising her for her beautiful lines. Too bad about the single flip and the wrong edge lutz, but otherwise, her performance was interesting. She does need more power to leave an impact on the judges, but her speed wasn't actually that bad (she was faster than LIZA IMO!). It's amazing that she's keeping the 3Lo-3Lo combo alive. Her last choreographic sequence was absolutely amazing. It's a shame that the judges did not give too much GOE because that deserves at least a +2 in my book.

Mirai - Oh what can I say. Her speed is above average but definitely not the fastest. She was stone-faced throughout the whole performance. Probably she was trying to focus too hard. All her jumps looked UR or DG. To be honest, I don't see much of a future for her if these problems continue. I hope she proves me wrong.

Men: Patrick - His skating is absolutely amazing live. I thought the people constantly praising him for his SS were over-exaggerating, but no, his SS is clearly the best in the whole field (by far). When he skates, he literally floats, and you can hear the sound of the ice because his edges are just that deep and strong. His jumps weren't on obviously. I think the fall on the quad sal made him lose his momentum. Still not sure whether he should have won, but he definitely should have the edge in PCS over Hanyu.

Yuzuru- I did not like the program. Period. It was basically like Evgenia's program: some arm flailing and then jumps here and there. He does have impressive jumps when successful (his 3A is a beauty). His speed was not too fast yesterday (probably not in his best condition), and his face was pretty stone-faced. Maybe my views on the program will change when he improves throughout the season, but what I saw yesterday live was not too great to be honest. It was absolutely hilarious to see the Japanese fans crying in joy watching him. LOL.

Kevin - He was not too fast but not extremely slow either. His jumps were pretty good yesterday, and he looked like he was on a mission. He definitely deserves the bronze. I do think he has great artistry despite lacking in SS. I'm glad he was able to come back from his injury strong.

Michal - I absolutely LOVED his skating. His SS was absolutely phenomenal, and it appeared that he had a decent number of transitions. Personally, I would give him higher PCS than Hanyu, but of course, that's not gonna happen in the real world.... His jumps were on yesterday. Too bad about the few URs, but I was so glad to see him do a relatively clean performance. Loved the music of his program too.

Daniel - This kid is so determined and fierce. Throughout the whole program, it appeared as if he was talking to himself (telling himself to focus and never give up). The first quad toe was unfortunate. It was a really bad fall. The whole audience gasped so loudly. But after that, he was pretty solid. His speed was pretty fast in the beginning, but it noticeably got slower gradually towards the end. He needs to work A LOT on his spins and steps, but the energy he projects is infectious. He skates like most of the Russian skaters (in a circular pattern), which was interesting.

Misha - OMG. The best performance of the night. In a fair world, the performance component of PCS should be higher than those of Chan and Hanyu.... He was completely on through the whole performance. Before going into the quad toe, I saw him very briefly looking at his father/ coach and nodding! I guess that was the signal to go for the quad, and he did it! (despite it being UR). His perfomance was so excellent that I can't put it in words. The crowd gave him a full standing O (The only one in the whole Men's event). I thought he deserved more (in the 160s).

Han - Ahhhhhh. What is going on with him? He seems to be the male So Youn Park...... His jumps were off, and he seemed pretty slow yesterday, which was surprising because I know well that he is usually a skater with good SS and speed. But yesterday was just not his day. He seemed extremely nervous in the warmup too. I don't know what is going on, but I pray that he finds the right track soon.

Pairs: Not too interested in pairs, but I wanted to point out that FRAZIER/DENNEY were robbed!!!!!! Their performance was so elegant. I was absolutely mesmerized (despite the side-by-side jump errors). They should have been placed ahead of a team that fell twice..... Even the Canadians who were sitting next to me were telling me that they were shocked.

Anyway, not sure if I covered everything (I'm extremely tired right now. My flight got delayed. Gahhh), but if there is anything you guys want to know about any skater in a live perspective, let me know!

TGee said:

I'm struggling with an assertion that the Canadian judge placing the Russians ahead of Chock and Bates is a reflection of bias, when you say the Japanese judge was among the most fair, but placed the Russian team 3rd.

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I'm not sure about the methodology of the ordinal calculation, but you seem to have missed that the Japanese judge tied the 4 teams ahead of them for 1 & 2.

Three usually follows two.

gravy said:

I'm not sure about the methodology of the ordinal calculation, but you seem to have missed that the Japanese judge tied the 4 teams ahead of them for 1 & 2.

Three usually follows two.

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Thanks...easier to see in the table version....

andyjo24 said:

Whole post......

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Wow...nice write up! Thanks for taking the time to share with us your live perspective. I'm going to get you a hockey stick that you can chase the skaters around the ice cracking it behind them to make them go faster for next time. We'll ask the mods to cover your bail money

My Opinion (aka what I feel that are worth re-watching):

Men: Yuzu
Ladies: Evgenia SP and Satoko FS
Pairs: Yu/Zhang FS
Dance: Anna/Luca EX and S/B EX


Absolutely disgusted by some of the GOEs and PCS scores (overscoring for some, underscoring for some others).

Sam-Skwantch said:

I do think we've reached a point where the scores are starting to tell us more about the judging panels than about the performances on the ice. :roll9:

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All together now...

EVERYTHING OLD IS NEW AGAIN...

You have made six posts in this thread so far, 50% have alluded to some form of conspiracy. I have noticed in the past, you have introduced similar type posts in various other threads where nobody was discussing the subject. Fishing to start a conspiracy debate?

chuckm said:

...I felt it was more that the audience didn't want them to finish ahead of the Canadian pair and so withheld their applause. Canadian audiences can be very partisan. I can recall Davis and White performing their (eventual) OGM winning FD in Canada to an impassive crowd. Only a few Americans in the crowd stood and applauded them. The remaining audience members sat grimly unmoved.

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This one wins a medal. Now you are suggesting an entire audience of several thousand people are all conspiring.

Were you at that competition? I was. The audience wasn't just Canadians. There were numerous visiting Americans, and a large number of Japanese. The Japanese flags may have out-numbered the Canadian flags. I know the fans of some American skaters were certainly loud enough to be recorded on the CTV/TSN broadcast recordings on my DVR. If other American skaters didn't receive the same amount of cheer, there must have been another reason.

TGee said:

Thanks for a sincere attempt to back up your critique with fact based analysis....

Without taking anything away from your sincere analysis, I do find it interesting that American fans in particular seem to want to still be focused on ordinals. It seems a common theme/perspective, and if it reflects a USFSA perspective, then it's not surprising that Canadian scoring is significantly different when from all I've seen, scoring in Canada is very bottom up in approach.

I would have never thought to have put this up myself without the numbers [and sincerely think you are right that background impacts the way we look at these things]....and note that the top two and bottom two absolute scores get tossed out in the calculation of the average score, so without the numbers we can't tell whose was thrown out....

I'm struggling with an assertion that the Canadian judge placing the Russians ahead of Chock and Bates is a reflection of bias, when you say the Japanese judge was among the most fair, but placed the Russian team 3rd.

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You're right some of us are still focused on the raw scores (not the ordinals - the result) for logical reason. Even though the high and the low are dropped, the cumulative result of the remaining scores comprise the overall result. It is a 'numbers game' and some are very good with their scoring strategy . For instance, practically all the scores given by the Canadian Judge to his teams V/M and G/P got retained whereas those from the Russian Judge got dropped. The Italian Judge high scores for his team got thrown, too. And all the high scores given by the Russian Judge to his team suffered a similar fate. Some Judges are either smart (Canadian) or some just not .

rvi5 said:

You have made six posts in this thread so far, 50% have alluded to some form of conspiracy. I have noticed in the past, you have introduced similar type posts in various other threads where nobody was discussing the subject. Fishing to start a conspiracy debate?



This one wins a medal. Now you are suggesting an entire audience of several thousand people are all conspiring.

Were you at that competition? I was. The audience wasn't just Canadians. There were numerous visiting Americans, and a large number of Japanese. The Japanese flags may have out-numbered the Canadian flags. I know the fans of some American skaters were certainly loud enough to be recorded on the CTV/TSN broadcast recordings on my DVR. If other American skaters didn't receive the same amount of cheer, there must have been another reason.

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Thanks for this. :2thumbs:

And I'd like to add that this count does not include his accusations regarding the delayed posting of the protocol for the Mens' LP on that thread last evening [see his posts from 9:27 pm on].

It seems that for chuckm, that a delay means someone is hiding something from him, rather than wondering if there was a review by the tech panel...as was logically going to happen given that Grant's scores were slow to come, and the commentators mentioned that there were questions being raised on behalf of the skater on a 2Lz vs 3Lz call.

Unfortunately, he did start a conspiracy debate at that point, which cooled down once the facts were out on the delay.... But every time the debate on that thread or this becomes more constructive and based on factual analysis or sincere opinion, he seems to need to intervene....

Sam-Skwantch said:

I do think we've reached a point where the scores are starting to tell us more about the judging panels than about the performances on the ice. :roll9:

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HAH. This should make your life more interesting then.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BMNntr9gHfg/

gravy said:

Here you go. How did you calculate the ordinals though?

Chock & Bates	5	1	1	2	2	3	3	3	4	2	1	2
Virtue & Moir	1	1	2	1	1	1	1	2	1	1	2	1
Gilles & Poirier	2	2	3	3	4	2	4	4	2	4	3	3
Capellini & Lanotte	3	2	4	4	3	3	2	1	3	3	4	4
Stepanova & Bukin	4	3	5	5	5	4	5	5	5	5	5	5

[td]CAN[/td]
[td]JPN[/td]
[td]USA[/td]
[td]FIN[/td]
[td]CHN[/td]
[td]NED[/td]
[td]RUS[/td]
[td]ITA[/td]
[td]KOR[/td] [td]PCS[/td]
[td]TES[/td]
[td]OVERALL[/td]

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Thank you. How did I do it? Well, just get the average of the 7 judges' raw scores for all the teams (calculated linearly) and get the judge's average raw scores for each team (done vertically). For example, for B/S, count the scores except the high and the low (in this case, the Russian's and the lows, the Korean's then average it out (Sum divided by 7) = 42.75, then do the same by criterion/standard tested i.e timing, composition, etc.), and add the two results (8.55) . I hope this makes sense. My brain is fried right now - time for bed.

Highlights:
Kaetlyn Osmond smashing both her PBs by 10 points. It's unlikely she'll get those PCS in China in a couple weeks, but they're definitely going to be higher than they've been if she keeps putting together good programs. Her triple triple is one of the best in the world. There is plenty of reason to be excited about Canadian ladies figure skating.
A ruthless tech panel. I LOVE IT. Just... Keep it consistent so the skaters don't get their signals mixed up. We all know Satoko's jumps are going to be magically healed in four weeks' time. I wish we'd be able to give skaters actual consistent feedback about their jumps. :angry2:
Duhamel/Radford landing their first throw axel.
Yu/Zhang's free skate. I still find them awkward together, but it was so nice to see them skate well and to see her HAPPY at the end. Her lines are exquisite.
Denney/Frazier's free skate. I can't get enough of this program and Haven is becoming one of my fave pairs girls. Her throws are beautiful and her face radiates joy. I hope they somehow get to GPF, though I know it's unlikely. :hap85:
Piper and Paul's stunning free dance. As a rare dance watcher I wasn't expecting to be enthralled by anything, but their tango captivated me more than any other dance did that night. :hap57:

Lowlights:
Mirai Nagasu and every downgraded triple jump.
Rika Hongo's lack of favour with the judges. :noshake:
Virtue/Moir's free dance. My opinion as a rare dance watcher isn't an objective one, but frankly, they lost me when Sam Smith started singing, and the twizzles didn't help. I personally think they're way better than what they showed here. I'm sure everything will get better as the season progresses. :gaah:
Yuzuru Hanyu's inability to come through with the quad loop. Canada LOVES Hanyu and I'm sure everyone in that stadium was waiting to erupt if Hanyu could deliver good programs. It's a shame he couldn't, but I hope he'll get it done sometime this season.:clapper:

Worst moment of the week:
Xiaoyu Yu looking totally out of it after the short program, like she didn't want to be there. Poor thing. It looked like she felt way better after the free, though, when she realized this pair has potential. I wish this team well, because I want her to be happy.

Moment of the week:
Kaetlyn Osmond's sensational short program. World Class.

Another thing:
I don't care what anyone else says.
Mark my words, if Yuzuru ever gets in top form this season, he'll show everybody that this is the best free program music he's ever had.

Astrid56 said:

You're right some of us are still focused on ordinals for logical reason. Even though the high and the low are dropped, the cumulative result of the remaining scores comprise the overall result. It is a 'numbers game' and some are very good with their scoring strategy . For instance, practically all the scores given by the Canadian Judge to his teams V/M and G/P got retained whereas those from the Russian Judge got dropped. The Italian Judge high scores for his team got thrown, too. And all the high scores given by the Russian Judge to his team suffered a similar fate. Some Judges are either smart (Canadian) or some just not .

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Or perhaps some judges aren't focused on ordinals gaming as you sincerely believe.... [No winks on my side for this one...]

I laid out my perspective a bit earlier on why different national federations and fans have different ways of seeing and appreciating skating.

Concern that ISU needs to do more to establish consensus and work with judges towards consistent application of the rules seems fair, assuming that judges are playing numbers games based on a single competition in which a particular team was in your view underscored makes me wonder why you continue to watch. [BTW I stopped watching skating after Salt Lake City. Only reason why I gave it another chance was because my kids fell in love with the sport, and I had to figure out how things work now.]

I really see that many judges in many countries have moved on from ordinals and have embraced IJS and COP judging....but I do accept that many GS posters are concerned about persistent tendencies to link PCS scoring to TES or to judge based on past performances rather than the day, especially the components with more subjective criteria [Performance, Composition, Interpretation].

I will note again that a strictly bottom up approach from a Canadian judge is going to produce something that may not overall be the same as the others...But as you note, it's not usually the extreme on any one element or component....Why do you assume it's gamesmanship?

IMO it's not surprizing that Skate Canada has been one of the most committed to the move away from 6.0 given the final impetus for the creation of a new system after Salt Lake City.

But it's also true that there was a longstanding dissatisfaction, and it's not too much to say loathing, by Canadian fans of the lack of transparency of 6.0 as well as the tight linking of the artistic impression ranking to technical performance.

Canadian fans seem to really want to know that their national federation has moved on. Definitely do not hear a lot of nostalgia for 6.0 among the older senior audience here, even among those who don't really understand how the new system generates the scores...