Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 32

Thread: Was Michelle lucky to win all those World Championships?

  1. #16
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Silicon Valley
    Posts
    159

    Luck

    In my opinion, luck always plays a role with any sport. Has Kwan been lucky? Well, sure...and sometimes unlucky. To be honest, luck or fate, plays a role in every life.

    Dizzy

  2. #17
    Custom Title Ogre Mage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    493
    I think almost more than any other ladies skater, Michelle has seen it all: up, down, good luck and bad throughout her 10 years at the WC. Some years the stars aligned and she gave a winning performance, other years it was one unfortunate thing after another. She soldiers on regardless.

  3. #18
    Kwan's vodka dealer VIETgrlTerifa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Newark
    Posts
    470
    Quote Originally Posted by Ogre Mage
    I think almost more than any other ladies skater, Michelle has seen it all: up, down, good luck and bad throughout her 10 years at the WC. Some years the stars aligned and she gave a winning performance, other years it was one unfortunate thing after another. She soldiers on regardless.
    I agree. We've seen Kwan have to give the skate of her life to beat another skate of a life (1996), we've seen Kwan fall behind and have to catch up (2000), we've seen Kwan just have a dream competition and rose smoothly along(1998, 2003), and we've seen Kwan get one misfortune after another (2001)....and those are just the times she won.

    I think 2004 Worlds proved that Kwan could skate under any circumstance.

  4. #19
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    39

    Michelle and luck

    Call it luck...call it fate. Michelle has had no greater share of it than any other skater. It's all part of the game and she is one tough gamer. Heck, her talent shines through even when she comes in 2nd or 3rd (no lower than that in the past 9 championships!).

    Luck. Yeah right.

  5. #20
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    102
    In my opinion, it's luck when:

    1) Michelle beats a skater who screws up. This skater has to be able to beat a clean Michelle more than 50% of the time.

    2) The judges call it wrong in favour of Michelle when the majority call it the other way around, example SA 2001 (Sarah, in the opinion of many should have won).

    Applying the above criteria to the past worlds:

    1994: Never watched it, no opinion here.

    1995: If the judges called it wrong (meaning the majority of the skating community disagreed), then it was bad luck for her.

    1996: Close, could have gone either way. It was luck for either party.

    1997: Fair win for Tara. Tara had never shown she could beat a clean Michelle BUT because Michelle managed to screw up consistently almost the entire season, it was no longer luck for Tara to beat an unclean Michelle. This season reminds me of Michelle-Sasha in 2003. Because Sasha managed to make mistakes consistently in major competitions, Michelle wasn't lucky to win Nats and Worlds.

    1998 (Olys): For those ppeople who thought Tara's win was justified, there was almost if not equal no. of people who would think otherwise. Since it could have gone either way, it would be luck for either party.

    1998: A lot of ifs. What if Tara had shown up. But then again what if she had but couldn't have duplicated another 7 triples with 3l/3l (remember her hips were beginning to give way). Remember also upto Olys 98, Michelle had proven she could beat a clean Tara despite her 7 triples iuncluding a 3/3. So, it was a fair win for Michelle.

    1999: Bad luck. Maria had never proven she could beat a clean Michelle.

    2000: If anyone thinks Michelle was lucky because Maria helped her by losing to Irina in frereskate, by the same token Michelle was unlucky to have screwed up her qualifying round and short program and ended up in 3rd behind Maria. That sort of canceled out each other wouldn't it? So, Michelle won it fair and square.

    2001: Totally fair. In fact she defied bad luck that threatened to throw her out of contention for the gold. That boot problem would have consumed and shaken other skaters.

    2002: Fair win for Irina. I don't think it's bad luck for Michelle to have screwed up her short program because she didn't skate consistently well in that season.

    2003: Won fair and square. It's silly to talk about her winning by skating a safe program with others falling because to begin with others hadn't proven they could skate clean consistently. Furthermore, none had proven they could beat a clean Michelle.

    2004: Fair placement.

    Last but not least, if a skater's succesful career is short, one may talk about luck. For any athlete who can stay at the top of the game for a decade, luck is minimum. This applies to any sport.
    Last edited by apache88; 08-01-2004 at 12:44 PM.

  6. #21
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    226
    Although she is a wonderful and great skater, in my mind, artisticaly the best of all time. Only Katia Gordeeva has moved me has much artisticaly when she skated solo.

    I think that some of her world championships win were pure luck but mainly it was because of her doing.

    I always thought that she was a great long program skater. She did a good job in the short program but she never had big jump, what I mean is that she was just like Yamaguchi, was doing her triple by turning very fast but not very high jumps. But like I said, she did her job by doing all she needed in the technical point but her artistic side was to me much better. If she goes to the next olympics and hope to win gold, she will need to work on more difficulty and more technical hard moves. I do hope that she wins gold if she goes again to the olympics because she really deserves it, she has proven that she is one of the best of all times. I just can compare her to Kurt Borwning who never won the gold at olympics and he so deserves it, but just could not get it and he is one of the best of all times too. Strange how things can turn sometime. The last two olympics, in the ladies, two US ladies have won gold, Lipinski in Nagano in 98 and Hughes in 2002.

    Lipinski we saw after has a professional for a while and Hughes we saw just a bit and to never see again. So to compare what Michelle and Kurt are to the skating world, they do deserves to be Gold medalists at the olympics, but you skate only one day to decide who wins it, so not on their long carreer, but just hope for Michelle next time.

    I love figure skating and love all the skaters I mentioned in this opinion of mine.

  7. #22
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,205
    Hi, Chania36. I'm glad to see you back posting! I agree with everything you said.

    Mathman

  8. #23
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    355
    Quote Originally Posted by apache88
    2000: If anyone thinks Michelle was lucky because Maria helped her by losing to Irina in frereskate, by the same token Michelle was unlucky to have screwed up her qualifying round and short program and ended up in 3rd behind Maria. That sort of canceled out each other wouldn't it? So, Michelle won it fair and square.
    Sorry, but a skater screws up in the QR and the SP and that is qualified as bad luck? LOL Then we have an awful lot of skaters with bad luck at all competitions when they don't manage to skate to their potential!

    I don't think Michelle's career has been particularly defined by good or bad luck. Some skaters you can say are unlucky for one reason or another, maybe like Alexander Abt who was always injured. But I don't think this is something that applies to Michelle.

    Luck is part of life and is part of sport too. They will all be lucky and unlucky at different points in time in their careers. Michelle is no exception. Sometimes she skated well, others she didn't, sometimes it was enough to beat her oponents, others it wasn't, sometimes her oponents screwed up in crutil moments, oter times she put down a terrific performance and managed to beat other terrific performances of other skaters... I mean, it's sport LOL I really don't think good or bad luck has played any more influence in Michelle's career that it has in the majority of other skaters.

  9. #24
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,205
    Quote Originally Posted by RIskatingfan
    Sorry, but a skater screws up in the QR and the SP and that is qualified as bad luck? LOL Then we have an awful lot of skaters with bad luck at all competitions when they don't manage to skate to their potential!
    I think you and Apache are saying the same thing, RI. I think Apache is saying that Michelle skating only so-so in the qualifying and SP is no more good or bad luck than Maria skating only so-so in the LP.

    Still, to me, it always seems like the skate gods are smiling when you get to the LP and you need not only to win the event yourself, but also a certain pattern of X beats Y and Z doesn't beat Q. Like Sarah in the Olympics. Yes, she won the LP. But she still needed the judges to put Slutskaya ahead of Kwan. This was completely out of Sarah's hands and there was nothing she could do to make it happen or not happen.

    Well, it did happen, by a five-to-four margin, with the U.S. judge cast in the role of tie-breaker. To me, that was a happy occurance for Sarah.

    I don't think Michelle's career has been particularly defined by good or bad luck. Some skaters you can say are unlucky for one reason or another, maybe like Alexander Abt who was always injured. But I don't think this is something that applies to Michelle.
    Actually, I think maybe that's the one area where we can say that Michelle has been lucky. She has been relatively free of injury throughout a long career. The only exception was her foot problems in 1997 (which, if you believe in luck, might have cost her the Olympic gold medal). Some people credit her with smart training methods which have paid off for her in terms of good health.

    Still, when you look at a skater like Irina Slutskaya, struck down by a rare and deadly medical condition, it's hard not to say, "There but for the grace of God go I."

    Mathman
    Last edited by Mathman; 08-01-2004 at 08:33 PM.

  10. #25
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    355
    Oh, when I mentioned Alexander Abt I was only trying to say that Michelle hasn't had a career defined by something in the way Alexander Abt has (with his injuries). I wasn't making comparisons between both of them regarding injuries But since you commented on that, I agree that for a skater who's been at the top for so long, she's been lucky with injuries. Being careful is important, but sometimes injuries happen even then.

    And ITA about Irina Slutskaya and hers and her family's health problems... now that's bad luck...

  11. #26
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    33

    Fate?

    Maybe it was fate; every one of you has their own opinions of the content in the thread. In my opinion, however, fate and luck did play a role in Michelle's success on the ice, but they didn't play very big roles.

  12. #27
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by RIskatingfan

    And ITA about Irina Slutskaya and hers and her family's health problems... now that's bad luck...
    I completely agree. Losing her mother- that would be so hard to deal with on top of her own problems.
    "My mom, for me, she's like my first & best and 1 friend, you know. We're like...one part. We have two bodies, but inside we are together. Always."-Irina Slutskaya

  13. #28
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    Quote Originally Posted by RIskatingfan
    Oh, when I mentioned Alexander Abt I was only trying to say that Michelle hasn't had a career defined by something in the way Alexander Abt has (with his injuries). I wasn't making comparisons between both of them regarding injuries But since you commented on that, I agree that for a skater who's been at the top for so long, she's been lucky with injuries. Being careful is important, but sometimes injuries happen even then.

    And ITA about Irina Slutskaya and hers and her family's health problems... now that's bad luck...
    I believe MK had a busted toe in 1997 which prevented her from executing her 3x3 Toe, which at the time was a solid combo. It cost her the 98 Olys. MK rarely used it after that and has kept herself injury free. Let's hope we see the 3x3s back solid this season.

    Abt is a sad case. He was one of those guys that was prone to injuries, but I've always liked his flow on the ice even with all the injuries. he should have stayed with Arutunian and not used that overly repeated melody of Bolero.

    Joe
    Last edited by Joesitz; 08-17-2004 at 12:24 PM.

  14. #29
    Down With It
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    13,538
    Luck is part of life and is part of sport too. They will all be lucky and unlucky at different points in time in their careers. Michelle is no exception. Sometimes she skated well, others she didn't, sometimes it was enough to beat her oponents, others it wasn't, sometimes her oponents screwed up in crucial moments, other times she put down a terrific performance and managed to beat other terrific performances of other skaters...
    Maybe it was fate; every one of you has their own opinions of the content in the thread. In my opinion, however, fate and luck did play a role in Michelle's success on the ice, but they didn't play very big roles.
    The above quotes pretty much sum up how I feel about Kwan. After all, she only has to skate- the judges are the ones who decide the overall outcome. Sometimes it plays in her favor, other times it doesn't (typically an error on MK's part). Another thing she can't control- her competitors. I say good for her when she wins handily and beats her competitors at their best. Other times she wins when her competitors fall or mess up, and vice versa.

    2002 Worlds- I didn't see the short, but I heard she messed up there. IS was stronger IMO in the LP than Kwan, so 2nd place deserved there. That wasn't luck.

    In 2003 Worlds, for example, she had almost no competition. She could have won the thing IMO if she just stood there on the ice. Bad luck, ironically on Irina's part, could have made the difference.

    In 2004 Worlds, she messed up in the QR, which I think got her down. But it was the time deduction in the SP, IMO deserved but still a touch of bad luck (she got away with it at 2004 Nats), which put her out of gold contention. In the LP, despite the distraction she pulled it off, props to her for that. 3rd place IMO deserved.

  15. #30
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    908
    If they deducted from her sp at nats, and even if MK placed 3rd in sp, she would still be national champ because she won the lp.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Evergrowing list of Skating Tapes available for copying...
    By springerluv in forum 2012-13 Figure Skating archives
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: 10-28-2009, 03:53 PM
  2. Looking Back - 1987 World Championships, Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    By SkateFan4Life in forum 2005-06 Figure Skating archives
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-02-2005, 04:54 PM
  3. Dance compilation 1979-1988
    By Koshka in forum 2012-13 Figure Skating archives
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-12-2004, 08:48 AM
  4. A Michelle Kwan Mystery
    By buzz366 in forum 2002-03 Figure Skating archives
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 06-18-2002, 07:14 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •