Was Michelle lucky to win all those World Championships? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Was Michelle lucky to win all those World Championships?

chania36

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 2, 2003
Although she is a wonderful and great skater, in my mind, artisticaly the best of all time. Only Katia Gordeeva has moved me has much artisticaly when she skated solo.

I think that some of her world championships win were pure luck but mainly it was because of her doing.

I always thought that she was a great long program skater. She did a good job in the short program but she never had big jump, what I mean is that she was just like Yamaguchi, was doing her triple by turning very fast but not very high jumps. But like I said, she did her job by doing all she needed in the technical point but her artistic side was to me much better. If she goes to the next olympics and hope to win gold, she will need to work on more difficulty and more technical hard moves. I do hope that she wins gold if she goes again to the olympics because she really deserves it, she has proven that she is one of the best of all times. I just can compare her to Kurt Borwning who never won the gold at olympics and he so deserves it, but just could not get it and he is one of the best of all times too. Strange how things can turn sometime. The last two olympics, in the ladies, two US ladies have won gold, Lipinski in Nagano in 98 and Hughes in 2002.

Lipinski we saw after has a professional for a while and Hughes we saw just a bit and to never see again. So to compare what Michelle and Kurt are to the skating world, they do deserves to be Gold medalists at the olympics, but you skate only one day to decide who wins it, so not on their long carreer, but just hope for Michelle next time.

I love figure skating and love all the skaters I mentioned in this opinion of mine.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Hi, Chania36. I'm glad to see you back posting! I agree with everything you said.

Mathman:)
 

RIskatingfan

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
apache88 said:
2000: If anyone thinks Michelle was lucky because Maria helped her by losing to Irina in frereskate, by the same token Michelle was unlucky to have screwed up her qualifying round and short program and ended up in 3rd behind Maria. That sort of canceled out each other wouldn't it? So, Michelle won it fair and square.
Sorry, but a skater screws up in the QR and the SP and that is qualified as bad luck? LOL Then we have an awful lot of skaters with bad luck at all competitions when they don't manage to skate to their potential! :laugh:

I don't think Michelle's career has been particularly defined by good or bad luck. Some skaters you can say are unlucky for one reason or another, maybe like Alexander Abt who was always injured. But I don't think this is something that applies to Michelle.

Luck is part of life and is part of sport too. They will all be lucky and unlucky at different points in time in their careers. Michelle is no exception. Sometimes she skated well, others she didn't, sometimes it was enough to beat her oponents, others it wasn't, sometimes her oponents screwed up in crutil moments, oter times she put down a terrific performance and managed to beat other terrific performances of other skaters... I mean, it's sport LOL I really don't think good or bad luck has played any more influence in Michelle's career that it has in the majority of other skaters.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
RIskatingfan said:
Sorry, but a skater screws up in the QR and the SP and that is qualified as bad luck? LOL Then we have an awful lot of skaters with bad luck at all competitions when they don't manage to skate to their potential! :laugh:
I think you and Apache are saying the same thing, RI. I think Apache is saying that Michelle skating only so-so in the qualifying and SP is no more good or bad luck than Maria skating only so-so in the LP.

Still, to me, it always seems like the skate gods are smiling when you get to the LP and you need not only to win the event yourself, but also a certain pattern of X beats Y and Z doesn't beat Q. Like Sarah in the Olympics. Yes, she won the LP. But she still needed the judges to put Slutskaya ahead of Kwan. This was completely out of Sarah's hands and there was nothing she could do to make it happen or not happen.

Well, it did happen, by a five-to-four margin, with the U.S. judge cast in the role of tie-breaker. To me, that was a happy occurance for Sarah.

I don't think Michelle's career has been particularly defined by good or bad luck. Some skaters you can say are unlucky for one reason or another, maybe like Alexander Abt who was always injured. But I don't think this is something that applies to Michelle.
Actually, I think maybe that's the one area where we can say that Michelle has been lucky. She has been relatively free of injury throughout a long career. The only exception was her foot problems in 1997 (which, if you believe in luck, might have cost her the Olympic gold medal). Some people credit her with smart training methods which have paid off for her in terms of good health.

Still, when you look at a skater like Irina Slutskaya, struck down by a rare and deadly medical condition, it's hard not to say, "There but for the grace of God go I."

Mathman:)
 
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RIskatingfan

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Oh, when I mentioned Alexander Abt I was only trying to say that Michelle hasn't had a career defined by something in the way Alexander Abt has (with his injuries). I wasn't making comparisons between both of them regarding injuries :) But since you commented on that, I agree that for a skater who's been at the top for so long, she's been lucky with injuries. Being careful is important, but sometimes injuries happen even then.

And ITA about Irina Slutskaya and hers and her family's health problems... now that's bad luck...
 

figure8fan17

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Fate?

Maybe it was fate; every one of you has their own opinions of the content in the thread. In my opinion, however, fate and luck did play a role in Michelle's success on the ice, but they didn't play very big roles.
 

figure8fan17

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
RIskatingfan said:
And ITA about Irina Slutskaya and hers and her family's health problems... now that's bad luck...

I completely agree. Losing her mother- that would be so hard to deal with on top of her own problems.
"My mom, for me, she's like my first & best and 1 friend, you know. We're like...one part. We have two bodies, but inside we are together. Always."-Irina Slutskaya
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
RIskatingfan said:
Oh, when I mentioned Alexander Abt I was only trying to say that Michelle hasn't had a career defined by something in the way Alexander Abt has (with his injuries). I wasn't making comparisons between both of them regarding injuries :) But since you commented on that, I agree that for a skater who's been at the top for so long, she's been lucky with injuries. Being careful is important, but sometimes injuries happen even then.

And ITA about Irina Slutskaya and hers and her family's health problems... now that's bad luck...

I believe MK had a busted toe in 1997 which prevented her from executing her 3x3 Toe, which at the time was a solid combo. It cost her the 98 Olys. MK rarely used it after that and has kept herself injury free. Let's hope we see the 3x3s back solid this season.

Abt is a sad case. He was one of those guys that was prone to injuries, but I've always liked his flow on the ice even with all the injuries. he should have stayed with Arutunian and not used that overly repeated melody of Bolero.

Joe
 
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R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Luck is part of life and is part of sport too. They will all be lucky and unlucky at different points in time in their careers. Michelle is no exception. Sometimes she skated well, others she didn't, sometimes it was enough to beat her oponents, others it wasn't, sometimes her oponents screwed up in crucial moments, other times she put down a terrific performance and managed to beat other terrific performances of other skaters...

Maybe it was fate; every one of you has their own opinions of the content in the thread. In my opinion, however, fate and luck did play a role in Michelle's success on the ice, but they didn't play very big roles.

The above quotes pretty much sum up how I feel about Kwan. After all, she only has to skate- the judges are the ones who decide the overall outcome. Sometimes it plays in her favor, other times it doesn't (typically an error on MK's part). Another thing she can't control- her competitors. I say good for her when she wins handily and beats her competitors at their best. Other times she wins when her competitors fall or mess up, and vice versa.

2002 Worlds- I didn't see the short, but I heard she messed up there. IS was stronger IMO in the LP than Kwan, so 2nd place deserved there. That wasn't luck.

In 2003 Worlds, for example, she had almost no competition. She could have won the thing IMO if she just stood there on the ice. Bad luck, ironically on Irina's part, could have made the difference.

In 2004 Worlds, she messed up in the QR, which I think got her down. But it was the time deduction in the SP, IMO deserved but still a touch of bad luck (she got away with it at 2004 Nats), which put her out of gold contention. In the LP, despite the distraction she pulled it off, props to her for that. 3rd place IMO deserved.
 

gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
If they deducted from her sp at nats, and even if MK placed 3rd in sp, she would still be national champ because she won the lp.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Red Dog said:
The above quotes pretty much sum up how I feel about Kwan. After all, she only has to skate- the judges are the ones who decide the overall outcome. Sometimes it plays in her favor, other times it doesn't (typically an error on MK's part). Another thing she can't control- her competitors. I say good for her when she wins handily and beats her competitors at their best. Other times she wins when her competitors fall or mess up, and vice versa.

Isn't that the story of every skater?

2002 Worlds- I didn't see the short, but I heard she messed up there. IS was stronger IMO in the LP than Kwan, so 2nd place deserved there. That wasn't luck.

There were also a majority of eastern european judges. That's luck for IS.

In 2003 Worlds, for example, she had almost no competition. She could have won the thing IMO if she just stood there on the ice. Bad luck, ironically on Irina's part, could have made the difference.

She had Sasha, Elena S., Elena L, Yoshie, Fumie, Carolina, Julia, etc. the only one missing was IS.

In 2004 Worlds, she messed up in the QR, which I think got her down. But it was the time deduction in the SP, IMO deserved but still a touch of bad luck (she got away with it at 2004 Nats), which put her out of gold contention. In the LP, despite the distraction she pulled it off, props to her for that. 3rd place IMO deserved.

Correct! and in the LP, she was the last skater to earn 6.0s in Worlds Competitions.

Joe
 
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S

SkateFan4Life

Guest
Overall, I think the judges called it right, as far as Michelle Kwan's World medals are concerned.

In 1995, she was still a skinny, 14-year-old with strong jumps but undeveloped artistry. She finished a strong fourth. The judges were telling her that they considered her a great jumper - now she had to develop the full package.

In 1996, Michelle won because she threw in an extra triple jump at the end of her program. She had seven triples to Chen Lu's six triples. Both women skated programs worthy of a gold medal, Kwan also skated after Lu, so the judges weren't holding back any marks. Incidentially, both skaters received 6.0s, all of which were well deserved. Michelle's artistry had dramatically improved.

In 1997, Kwan made a mistake in the short program and needed help to win the title. While she won the long program, Lipinski skated two error-free routines and won fairly and squarely, according to the rules.

In 1998, Kwan won despite falling in her long program. Lipinski and Lu were absent, the she really only needed to skate two good programs to win, which she did. It was an anti-climax competition, after Nagano.

In 1999, Kwan made mistakes (and was also ill with the flu), but Maria Butraskaya convincingly outskated her and deserved to win. I, personally, was glad to see Maria win, as she had stuck it out for so many years with an unsupportive Russian skating federation. It was great to see a 26-year-old win the World title!

In 2000, Kwan needed help to win, and she received the help to win. I don't think it was her most inspired program, but it did the job.

In 2001, Kwan overcame skate problems and again skated good programs to win.

In 2002, Kwan looked tired - perhaps still reeling from her self-destruct at Salt Lake City, and only skated so-so programs (for her). Her silver medal was a gift, in my opinion, based more on reputation than on the actual performance.

In 2003, Kwan was the best, and she deserved her fifth World title.

In 2004, Kwan made some errors, and that short program timing error cost her dearly. I thought she deserved no better than the bronze for her performance, and that's what she received.

Still, Michelle Kwan has to go down in history as one of the greatest figure skaters of all time. Her consistency, her ability to always medal in the major competitions, and her standard of excellence are yardsticks that may never been seen again. How many skaters will win eight US titles? And Michelle may well continue to win National, World, and Olympic titles or medals.

Just my own opinions, of course.
 
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