Hopefully ur predication about future limitations will come sooner than later
Limit the jump # in second half program?
- Thread starter JayW
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Hopefully ur predication about future limitations will come sooner than later
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I wonder what the reaction would have been if it had been a Japanese lady or an American lady who did it first, rather than a Russian lady.
My view is exactly the same as it is for all the people whinging about a skater who does all their passes with tanos. If the rules allow it and the skater can do it, good for them. If your skater can't do it...that's not a reason to change the rules.
My view is exactly the same as it is for all the people whinging about a skater who does all their passes with tanos. If the rules allow it and the skater can do it, good for them. If your skater can't do it...that's not a reason to change the rules.
I like option 2. Certainly, in the short program, it serves no purpose. In the long, allegedly free, program, it drives the choreography, and not in a positive way. Free the free skate!
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- Jun 9, 2014
The rule applies to the SP for the same reason it does in the FS. An attempt to make sure skaters create a balanced program. Otherwise some would just put all 3 jumping passes in the first half of the program.
My opinion would be the same regardless of the nationality of the skater who does it. I really get frustrated on this board when people assume or imply that someone thinks a certain way because a Russian is doing it or is winning. Can't someone just plain think that there is a flaw in the scoring system that is being exploited? There is a such thing as too much.
If that is the purpose, why are all three jumps/combos given the bonus? It creates an incentive to create unbalanced programs--an incentive that didn't exist before. In the long program, there is an incentive to do jumps early before the skater is tired. That incentive doesn't exist, or at least not to the same extent, in the short program, so there is really no reason to create an incentive to put jumps later.
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:dance2: What if just we gave an 8% bonus to jumps in the first half and kept the 10% in the second half :dance2:
Look at the name of what gets the bonus- it's officially called bonus for highlight Distribution! You should according to the rules only get the bonus for putting some jumps in the second half. If you put all of them there -no highlight distribution exists. To make things clear there must be a ban on putting all jumps in second half or what may be good is a ban on doing more than three jumping passes in a row or maybe two.
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- Jun 9, 2014
I think the problem with these rules is that it was created without consideration of the long termed consequences. I highly doubt the ISU expected to see a completely back-loaded program. :noshake: It was essentially a band-aid rule that's losing its adhesive.
There should just be less points to get in the first place rather than a possible deduction. Let's face it, PCS is so broad that most judges would never adhere to some sort of deduction on them. If you were to implement a deduction, I would say it should be left to the technical panel rather than the judges and the deduction should show like a fall rather than something ticked off in PCS.
How about eliminating bonus points in TES, but incorporating the well-balanced requirement into PCS (e.g. into Choreography). In principle, it makes better sense to associate well-balancedness, which is an aesthetic, with program component rather than technical. In practice, I've no idea how this can be implemented...
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I looked through protocols of recent competitions and find 4 and 5 jumping passes in the bonus period pretty standard for the Ladies, and mostly 5 jumping passes among the Men with a few doing 4 including Nathan Chen. Alina Zagitova with 7 and Stanislava KONSTANTINOVA with 6 are the exceptions.
I really don't see back loaded programs being an issue though I still don't agree with the bonuses for the SP. Poor distribution should be dealt with in the PCS.
I really don't see back loaded programs being an issue though I still don't agree with the bonuses for the SP. Poor distribution should be dealt with in the PCS.
My reaction would be the same no matter who did it if the program and skate ends up looking the way they do, and not all Russian ladies use this strategy either so this isn't something I would apply to all Russian ladies at this time. I think Wakaba Higuchi tried something similar in the SP last season where she had all her jumps in the second half, I didn't particularly like it there either but in terms of enjoying a skate it is little easier to ignore in terms of the composition of the program for the SP since the program overall is shorter, less time to "meander" and fill up time until the second half. It becomes much more obvious in the FS if they do this since they have to try and fill up more time in the beginning of the program and squish more of the jumps into a smaller window of time.
The crux of the matter is that if the 10% bonus was meant to promote a well-balanced program it's clear in some cases it works, but in extreme cases it has the opposite effect. If it's having a reverse effect then I think the ISU should consider how they can change it to achieve what they originally put this bonus in place for across the board. I think we've started seeing more ladies throw their arms up in the air when they jump, and now we have a case where all the jumps are in the second half. I think partially this is because most of the ladies are at their technical limit in terms of the jumps unless they are training a triple axel. We're not seeing this with the men, and I don't expect it to develop with the men since I think their technical limits are different types of quads.
On the subject of tanos and rippons, if the skater can do it then let them do it, but I think the overuse should be reflected in the score for choreography if turns out to be distracting, and also in overall GOE if it's not executed well or other points of the jump are lacking (like height and distance and flow in and out).
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- Jan 5, 2014
Oh, I am speechless... my English is too poor to say anything more.
All this is only in your own mind, these suspicions.
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This makes sense to me.
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- Sep 10, 2012
I agree about a limitation for the FS, since when you're doing just a step sequence and a spin in the first half when the second arrives you're not as tired as you would be, had you performed jumps in the first half. So the bonus is not actually rewarding your performing difficult jumps DESPITE fatigue (which is what it should be for), it's simply rewarding the fact that you skate for two minutes waiting for the bonus and then start jumping
There is literally no way to not make backloading obvious. A girl can only have so much time after 2 minutes to skate her choreography well and set up 5 jumping passes. One only has to watch the whole Russian fleet to see how their programs lack literally every component because they have to keep jumping and spinning in under 2 mins.
The reaction would be the same, but its not really in the the American or Japanese sensibility to grossly exploit the rules. Clearly it pays off for the Russians but what it has done is made the sport predictable, generic, gangly, sloppy, discombobulated and unappealing.
Technically sound, but as a whole just inadequate in components.
I meant the sport by the way, not just the Russians.
Technically sound, but as a whole just inadequate in components.
I meant the sport by the way, not just the Russians.
Comparing with tanos is unfair because there is no rule saying that Tanos or Rippons get additional points. But yeah I think if nothing is changed judges should take off for PCS.
Though to be fair, only the most consistent jumpers are going for more second half jumps, indicating that the rule is able to weed out who is really confident in their jumping abilities which is as mentioned the only way for women to stand out. But it isn't good for the program...
Though to be fair, only the most consistent jumpers are going for more second half jumps, indicating that the rule is able to weed out who is really confident in their jumping abilities which is as mentioned the only way for women to stand out. But it isn't good for the program...
