Limit the jump # in second half program?

da96103 · Dec 27, 2016

How about this? 10% bonus given for jumps either in the first half or second half depending on which half has less number of jumps.

So if a female skater did 3 jumps in first half and 4 jumps in second half, she gets 10% only for the three jumps in the first half.

If a male skater did 5 jumps in first half and 3 jumps in second half, he would get 10% for the three jumps in second half.

da96103 · Dec 27, 2016

da96103 said:
How about this? 10% bonus given for jumps either in the first half or second half depending on which half has less number of jumps.

So if a female skater did 3 jumps in first half and 4 jumps in second half, she gets 10% only for the three jumps in the first half.

If a male skater did 5 jumps in first half and 3 jumps in second half, he would get 10% for the three jumps in second half.

This would mean the jump layout would be the same for all skater.

3-4 or 4-3 for ladies
4-4 for men.

Ladies would do all combo jumps in one half and 4 solo jumps in the other half.

Men would put 3 combo plus one highest solo in one half and 4 lower solos in another half.

gkelly · Dec 27, 2016

da96103 said:
How about this? 10% bonus given for jumps either in the first half or second half depending on which half has less number of jumps.

That would defeat the purpose of giving a bonus for more difficult jumps when the skater is tired.

If a man put 3 quads in the first half and 5 triple-only jump passes in the second half, should he really get the bonus for the quads?

Tolstoj · Dec 27, 2016

moriel said:
I still don't get why people want to restrict difficulty.
Jumps in second half makes the program harder? Yes.
To beat it, it pushes other skaters to do harder things too (this is why ladies started to backload in first place).
That means its awesome, because it forces ladies to do harder things - jumps in second half, harder jumps such as Lz for more TES, trying 3A and quads... Sounds great to me.

I guess someone doesn't want to push Figure skating forward otherwise their favourites won't never win Worlds or GPF.

I think this is just a matter of tastes but having said that there is no true reason to limit jumps in second half outside "i want to screw Medvedeva (or anyone else with backloaded programs)".

Same story goes for the tano: she does it and it's up to judges to reward that move or not, if they don't like it they won't reward it. What's the point of limiting it?

andromache said:
Should all elements in second half receive a bonus? Spins and footwork are harder when you're tired too, right?

Well according to skaters themself it's much easier to do spins at the end of a free program than a jump or even a 3-3 combo.

Let's say if 10% is the bonus for jumps in the 2nd half, 0.1% should be the bonus for spins.

da96103 · Dec 27, 2016

gkelly said:
That would defeat the purpose of giving a bonus for more difficult jumps when the skater is tired.

If a man put 3 quads in the first half and 5 triple-only jump passes in the second half, should he really get the bonus for the quads?

Yes he gets rewarded because though the bonus is placed in the quads, he qualified for the bonus by putting 5 solos in the second half as opposed to doing 8 jumping passes in first half.

Tolstoj · Dec 27, 2016

da96103 said:
How about this? 10% bonus given for jumps either in the first half or second half depending on which half has less number of jumps.

So if a female skater did 3 jumps in first half and 4 jumps in second half, she gets 10% only for the three jumps in the first half.

If a male skater did 5 jumps in first half and 3 jumps in second half, he would get 10% for the three jumps in second half.

It would promote hardest jumps/combos in the first half, i don't like that.

Why should you reward a combo done right at the beginning? it doesn't look difficult.

da96103 · Dec 27, 2016

Tolstoj said:
It would promote hardest jumps/combos in the first half, i don't like that.

Why should you reward a combo done right at the beginning? it doesn't look difficult.

True but this thread is about rewarding skaters who does equal number of jumps in both halves.

You can add extra rules. If the bonus is given in the first half, 3-4 or 3-5 then it is 10%, if the bonus is given in second half, 4-3 or 5-3, the bonus is 12%. Something like that.

drivingmissdaisy · Dec 27, 2016

gkelly said:
That would defeat the purpose of giving a bonus for more difficult jumps when the skater is tired.

If a man put 3 quads in the first half and 5 triple-only jump passes in the second half, should he really get the bonus for the quads?

You example illustrates how difficult it is to reward difficulty in a fair way, while also encouraging skaters to have well balanced programs. This is a common problem in many judged sports. In gymnastics, the new COP reduced the difficulty value of a lot of the turns on balance beam but increased the value for some more difficult mounts, because gymnasts apparently weren't incentivized to perform them. The ISU seems like it still has some tinkering to do with the scoring system so that we see better programs.

da96103 · Dec 27, 2016

Tolstoj said:
It would promote hardest jumps/combos in the first half, i don't like that.

Why should you reward a combo done right at the beginning? it doesn't look difficult.

Come to think of it a simpler rule would be only the last 4 jumps in the second half would be given 10% bonus. So since there is no bonus for jump passes 1 to 3 for ladies and 1 to 4 for men even if they are in second half, they might as well put those in first half.

Tolstoj · Dec 27, 2016

da96103 said:
True but this thread is about rewarding skaters who does equal number of jumps in both halves.

You can add extra rules. If the bonus is given in the first half, 3-4 or 3-5 then it is 10%, if the bonus is given in second half, 4-3 or 5-3, the bonus is 12%. Something like that.

If judges don't like backloaded programs they should downgrade the components, the TES is all about the athleticism and a lutz in the 2nd half is much harder for the shoulders than a Lutz in the first half: Gracie Gold said that a year ago and Liza talked this season about the difficulty of backloading both the lutzes.

zebobes · Dec 27, 2016

Sam-Skwantch said:
I'd also consider making it necessary that whatever element receives the bonus must recieve positive GOE or even go as far as to say any element eligible to recieve the 10% bonus could receive a 10% reduction if negative GOE is applied (fall) That would be some mega dramas and really make people think about what jumps to put where.

I think this is a good idea, but instead just think of it as being a multiplier. If you multiply all GOE by 1.5, that means a high quality quad or triple axel could get up to 4.5 points in GOE, but a fall would get a 6 points subtracted. And the multiplier could be done to all elements, not just jumps, but the biggest elements with highest GOE would get the biggest benefit out of the bonus multiplier.

However, this could be too punitive, and might cause people to stop putting all risky elements into the second half. What do you guys think?

andromache · Dec 27, 2016

Make it so that it's impossible for skaters to include ALL jumps in the second half/bonus by reducing the bonus time. This still promotes difficulty (perhaps even further difficulty) while still encouraging balanced programs.

For the LP, reduce the bonus time to one minute. A skater is unlikely to do all of their jumps in that minute, but perhaps they will do both of their combos then (if they can). Doing a 3Lz-3T (or any other jump/combo) is harder to do 3 minutes in than 2 minutes in. And because it's impossible to get all your passes in that last minute, the rest of the jumps can be more evenly spread throughout the program. You can maximize your difficulty/points without sacrificing balance.

FWIW, I resent the implication that people who find unbalanced programs annoying just hate Evgenia. I love her, and I actually think her LPs are very balanced. Alena Z....not so much.

ETA: For the time being, I don't even think the many backloaders usually do a combo in the last minute. This would give them incentive to do so. Increasing difficulty without over-complicating the scoring system or sacrificing balance.

mcq · Dec 27, 2016

andromache said:
FWIW, I resent the implication that people who find unbalanced programs annoying just hate Evgenia. I love her, and I actually think her LPs are very balanced. Alena Z....not so much.

ETA: For the time being, I don't even think the many backloaders usually do a combo in the last minute. This would give them incentive to do so. Increasing difficulty without over-complicating the scoring system or sacrificing balance.

This. Evgenia FS is just as backloaded as Sotskova, Radionova etc with 5 jumps in the second half. I never think of her FS as unbalanced or severely backloaded tbh. I think 2+5 could still be a reasonable balanced program. But I don't think I can say the same with all jumps in the second half. I am still against banning/prohibiting skater to do all jumps in the second half though. If they think they can do it and they think it would not disturb the program's balance I think they should be allowed to do it (like skaters are still allowed to frontload their jumps). Just like you said, limit the bonus, though I would prefer to just award the last 4/5 jumping passes in the second half.

randomfan · Dec 27, 2016

I never really had a big problem with the idea of a 2+5 layout itself, but what bothered me a lot was how the jumping passes were almost always back-to-back. I understand it's so that the skaters can get them out of the way as soon as possible while also getting the bonus, but it's way too obvious and rushed that it makes me cringe. It interupts the flow of the program if you just see jump-jump-jump-jump-jump. At least a some skaters with the usual 3+4 layout have at least one spin between their second half jumping passes, or even better (and less common) - a mix of other elements along with the jumps. And even if you put the jumps back-to-back in the 3+4 layout (jump-jump-jump-jump) it's not nearly as cringy as doing it in the 2+5 layout.

And cringy is also my way of saying that it is not helping the choreography and that PCS should be deducted. But now with the idea of moving the sport to another level (which by the way I used to not have a problem with), the judges seem to be over-rewarding PCS no matter what the program is.

Anyways back to the topic: Though many posters here had good ideas, I still think Sam-Skwantch's idea would work the best - only a certain number of jumps receiving the bonus.

karne · Dec 27, 2016

moriel said:
I still don't get why people want to restrict difficulty.
Jumps in second half makes the program harder? Yes.
To beat it, it pushes other skaters to do harder things too (this is why ladies started to backload in first place).
That means its awesome, because it forces ladies to do harder things - jumps in second half, harder jumps such as Lz for more TES, trying 3A and quads... Sounds great to me.

Because their favourites can't match it...

sheetz · Dec 27, 2016

The "problem" should fix itself once more ladies start doing harder jumps. You don't see this issue with the men because their programs are so demanding.

Meoima · Dec 27, 2016

If they could give a program with all jumps in the second half that fits to the music... with good execution that doesn't look rush.

Sam-Skwantch · Dec 27, 2016

Meoima said:
If they could give a program with all jumps in the second half that fits to the music... with good execution that doesn't look rush.

....they should receive extra points in the Composition aspect of PCS and maybe even Execution. I don't think the BV should increase but maybe all jumps in the second half could be eligible to receive up to 4pts GOE with the judges deciding which ones get it. Hmm.......

Khoai · Dec 27, 2016

Sam-Skwantch said:
....they should receive extra points in the Composition aspect of PCS and maybe even Execution. I don't think the BV should increase but maybe all jumps in the second half could be eligible to receive up to 4pts GOE with the judges deciding which ones get it. Hmm.......

I still don't understand why Miss Zagitova get the GOE she gets. Her elements are done ok but not that excellent execution. But again, it's the same thing with Miss Medvedeva.

LiamForeman · Dec 27, 2016

I was prepared to be appalled at Zag's LP. But the funny thing was I didn't really even notice it was all jumps after 1/2. I was so impressed with the 3/3s, the Rippons, the Tanos hitting me like lightning that I thought it really brought an unreal fire to the program. I was happy with the program.

Limit the jump # in second half program?

da96103

da96103

gkelly

Tolstoj

da96103

Tolstoj

da96103

drivingmissdaisy

da96103

Tolstoj

zebobes

andromache

mcq

randomfan

karne

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sheetz

Meoima

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Sam-Skwantch

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Khoai

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LiamForeman

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