Virtue & Moir vs. Papadakis & Cizeron | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Virtue & Moir vs. Papadakis & Cizeron

Big Deal

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
I really am amazed by P/C, BUT when the 2 teams skate next to each other the comparison is very obviously shows V/M superiority in most areas.
On the top of it I would NEVER forget that V/M literally saved and transformed Ice Dance in the era, when Domnina/Shabalin, Belbin/Agosto, Khohlova/Novitski was in power and bored the crowd ( I didn't mention Delobel Schoenfelder because they never been boring but lacked the technical side). PLUS most of us remember them how unfairly they have been treated by judges (when they lost the FD with Carmen in the preOlympic year) and by their coaches (giving them THAT material for 2014. when they even could win with that, but D/W was good enough to live up to their "offered" chance).

The strange part of it that I seriously think that P/C is much better than D/W ever been, but I also think that D/W could beat V/M only once , in 2012. World with their wonderful Fledermaus program contra V/M less good Funny Face program (strangely that was the last competition when V/M beat them. It telles a lot about politicking in that era....)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
It's so funny how people used to say this exact thing about V/M vs. D/W.

In an unrealistic scenario in which D/W return, they, too, would beat P/C. Easily.

When V/M and D/W retired, many people latched on to P/C as a new era of greatness. They were wrong, and they still are.

Don't get me wrong, they're good. But they don't deserve to be considered on par with two of the greatest dance teams in history.
 

topaz emerald

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 1, 2015
I really am amazed by P/C, BUT when the 2 teams skate next to each other the comparison is very obviously shows V/M superiority in most areas.
On the top of it I would NEVER forget that V/M literally saved and transformed Ice Dance in the era, when Domnina/Shabalin, Belbin/Agosto, Khohlova/Novitski was in power and bored the crowd ( I didn't mention Delobel Schoenfelder because they never been boring but lacked the technical side). PLUS most of us remember them how unfairly they have been treated by judges (when they lost the FD with Carmen in the preOlympic year) and by their coaches (giving them THAT material for 2014. when they even could win with that, but D/W was good enough to live up to their "offered" chance).

The strange part of it that I seriously think that P/C is much better than D/W ever been, but I also think that D/W could beat V/M only once , in 2012. World with their wonderful Fledermaus program contra V/M less good Funny Face program (strangely that was the last competition when V/M beat them. It telles a lot about politicking in that era....)

you hit the nail on the head. Ice dance was so incredibly boring before V/M came along. Then bam, first time I saw V/M was this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvDMZDWEG-0
I was hooked immediately. I couldn't get over how lovely and smooth they were, the connection, the love, the DANCING...YES THEY ACTUALLY LOOKED LIKE THEY WERE DANCING!
I must have watched a lot of their programs over and over and over again, I couldn't get enough, lol. From then on, I followed their career very closely. There will be no one EVER like them in the world of ice dance. They are something special. I still go back and watch their old programs.
 

topaz emerald

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 1, 2015
I really am amazed by P/C, BUT when the 2 teams skate next to each other the comparison is very obviously shows V/M superiority in most areas.
On the top of it I would NEVER forget that V/M literally saved and transformed Ice Dance in the era, when Domnina/Shabalin, Belbin/Agosto, Khohlova/Novitski was in power and bored the crowd ( I didn't mention Delobel Schoenfelder because they never been boring but lacked the technical side). PLUS most of us remember them how unfairly they have been treated by judges (when they lost the FD with Carmen in the preOlympic year) and by their coaches (giving them THAT material for 2014. when they even could win with that, but D/W was good enough to live up to their "offered" chance).

The strange part of it that I seriously think that P/C is much better than D/W ever been, but I also think that D/W could beat V/M only once , in 2012. World with their wonderful Fledermaus program contra V/M less good Funny Face program (strangely that was the last competition when V/M beat them. It telles a lot about politicking in that era....)

They are really good, but in a modern dance/ artsy kind of way, which just isn't my cup of tea, but for a lot of people, they are in love with the couple. I think their greatest asset is their fluidity. They're more fluid than V/M. But I feel just something is lacking....
 

Big Deal

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
They are really good, but in a modern dance/ artsy kind of way, which just isn't my cup of tea, but for a lot of people, they are in love with the couple. I think their greatest asset is their fluidity. They're more fluid than V/M. But I feel just something is lacking....

Sharpness, versatility and some technical features they are lacking. V/ M can dance literally ANYTHING from folk music to Waltz, Disco dance, Jive or Polka. P/C mastered one thing, the fluidity at ethereal beauty. Not easy to find them the right vehicle and music, which their coaching team is masterful at. They also too ethereal, not having enough down-to-earth man-woman connection (actually that is what Davi/White also never had). I am missing that even more than in the case of Shibutanis, whom they can cope with the sibling issue very well. I also think that Shibutanis are a better technicians, just never been lucky enought to have a Dubreuil-Lauzon-Hagenauer quality coaching team.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

peepsquick

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 26, 2016
Sharpness, versatility and some technical features they are lacking. V/ M can dance literally ANYTHING from folk music to Waltz, Disco dance, Jive or Polka. P/C mastered one thing, the fluidity at ethereal beauty. Not easy to find them the right vehicle and music, which their coaching team is masterful at. They also too ethereal, not having enough down-to-earth man-woman connection (actually that is what Davi/White also never had). I am missing that even more than in the case of Shibutanis, whom they can cope with the sibling issue very well. I also think that Shibutanis are a better technicians, just never been lucky enought to have a Dubreuil-Lauzon-Hagenauer quality coaching team.

A program doesn't need to be "sexed-up" to be gorgeous. It is probably why I was bored with skating until P/C . When it comes to versatility, look at their older programs. They are not my cup of tea but they are showing versatility. When it comes to hip-hop they gave us a peek at what they can do during the EX gala in Boston. What I don't understand, is why so many are eager for them to do style-hopping for the FD. They are developing their style more each season, that is what you do in art. Their style is more attuned to contemporary dance/ballet and less to ballroom dancing. And why not? We need different styles to make this exciting.
 

uhh

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
I am really hoping to see V/M do something completely different from this year's FD for next season. Because they can carry off so much more than the Gadbois ethereal, romantic, lyrical stuff. Carmen, the Latin FD & Great Gig in the Sky all show that. On the other hand, P/C haven't shown anything that makes me think they can. Their Woodkid program was good, complex material from Zazoui, but it was also a season full of mistakes - just unlucky, or because they couldn't cope with the choreography they were given? And people are already bored with the soft style after 3 years & multiple teams copying it. I can see whoever sticks with that being blown out of the water by a team that takes a risk.

(I would never have thought I would be calling for V/M to be the exciting risk taking team. I miss the variety we had even just 4 years ago so much :( )
 

peepsquick

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 26, 2016
I did not say that ice dance is "strictly technical" -- I admitted it has a lot of subjective aspects and it's ok for P/C to be winning these subjective aspects. But the SD does have technical aspects (namely, the pattern dance and the keypoints), and SS SHOULD be a technical aspect. But alas, this is IJS and the Olympics are nearing and scores are crazy. So I guess I accept what's happening.

For what it's worth I would love it if neither of these teams win hehe I'm a W/P uber. It's not gonna happen though :D

I do also like W/P and think that they should rank higher.
 

uhh

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
What I don't understand, is why so many are eager for them to do style-hopping for the FD. They are developing their style more each season, that is what you do in art. Their style is more attuned to contemporary dance/ballet and less to ballroom dancing. And why not? We need different styles to make this exciting.

This bugs me, because ice dance is not supposed to be rooted in contemporary dance. The foundation is translating ballroom dancing on to the ice. And that means working with all the different styles and rhythms you would find in ballroom and latin, not making up new definitions to fit the fact that P/C are more comfortable in very open holds & using melody not rhythms. There are specific requirements in the judging handbooks about what teams are supposed to be producing, and it is infuriating that P/C have been given a pass on this for the last 2.5 seasons when other teams are harshly punished. Case in point: P/C didn't have a waltz beat in their SD in 2015/16, just get told by the judges at Euros to add something for worlds, but Agafonova/Ucar had the same problem at Worlds 2013 and had the entire pattern sequence invalidated.
 

peepsquick

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 26, 2016
This bugs me, because ice dance is not supposed to be rooted in contemporary dance. The foundation is translating ballroom dancing on to the ice. And that means working with all the different styles and rhythms you would find in ballroom and latin, not making up new definitions to fit the fact that P/C are more comfortable in very open holds & using melody not rhythms. There are specific requirements in the judging handbooks about what teams are supposed to be producing, and it is infuriating that P/C have been given a pass on this for the last 2.5 seasons when other teams are harshly punished. Case in point: P/C didn't have a waltz beat in their SD in 2015/16, just get told by the judges at Euros to add something for worlds, but Agafonova/Ucar had the same problem at Worlds 2013 and had the entire pattern sequence invalidated.

If competitions don't evolve they wither. Ballroom dancing is taking care of in the SD and its very specific requirements. P/C might not have had a classical waltz in 2015/16 but they did have the beat. I don't see what the pass you are mentioning is supposed to be about but I am guessing that you are also reacting out of a negative personal experience with the judging system. You cannot lay that at P/C's door. They are not in charge of the judging.
 

Alextim

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
To me, Virtue Moir are better skaters but Papadakis Cizeron are better dancers. I have the feelings P/C will take the lead in the olympic season even if the 2017 season could be lost
 

olayolay

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Cizeron is a better dancer, but I don't think Gabriella is better than Tessa or Scott.

It depends what dance style we're talking about too. V/M are better at a wider range of styles than P/C.
 

katha

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Personally, I haven't been convinced by any of the SDs P/C did in the last three years. In every one of those seasons I can think of various teams who did way more convincing interpretations of the required themes. And I do think it shows their lack of range that every season it's "oh, they're kinda meh in the SD where they need to interpret an assigned dance, but who cares as long as they have a cool FD". And I think with V/M coming back, it's finally starting to matter that they aren't very strong SD skaters and that they need up their game now in this can only be a good thing for both the sport and for their development as a dance team. Coasting is never a good thing.
 

BlackAxel

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
As already stated by a few other posters, the SD isn't a strongsuit of P/C and they need to do something about it quick! Next season's SD is going to be latin-themed which plays heavily in V/M's favor. (<- Have they ever skated to a mediocre latin program?).

In order to stand out, I think P/C should choose a more dramatic and powerful FS ... No more of the contemporary movement-filled programs to softer pieces which they perform excellently. After three seasons of the same ol, same ol ... in what areas have P/C taken risks or showed signs of growth and versatility?

I think V/M are well on their way of winning Worlds 2017 and the Olympics next yr.
 

chezzu

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 12, 2010
If competitions don't evolve they wither. Ballroom dancing is taking care of in the SD and its very specific requirements. P/C might not have had a classical waltz in 2015/16 but they did have the beat. I don't see what the pass you are mentioning is supposed to be about but I am guessing that you are also reacting out of a negative personal experience with the judging system. You cannot lay that at P/C's door. They are not in charge of the judging.

They had an unclear waltz beat which was handwaved by the judges. Instead of getting appropriate deductions they were just told to fix it + scored enormously in the Euros SD.
So by Worlds, they added that annoying drumbeat to the track.

But to be fair, several top teams tried to go adventurous with their waltzes and were told by the judges to fix their music (W/P, C/B IIRC?). It's not just P/C who avoided the non-waltz music deduction. It's just that P/C debuted at Euros -- much later than normal -- so I guess this pass from the judges makes more of an "impact" to us users than the judges in the summer B competitions.
 

olayolay

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
It's because you had years to see them skate as opposed to P/C

That's not really true. V/M were around P/C's age when they did their Latin FD and their Spanish OD. By their early 20s, V/M had shown far more range and skill at that range than P/C.

I doubt V/M will win the Olympics though. I just can't fathom the judges giving them another gold medal when they have a very worthy alternative in P/C. The politics and wave against them will just be too strong. I don't necessarily think they think they will win either, but their 2014 experience with Marina was really unsatisfying and I think they want to go out on their own terms.
 
Last edited:

nocturnalis

Medalist
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
As already stated by a few other posters, the SD isn't a strongsuit of P/C and they need to do something about it quick! Next season's SD is going to be latin-themed which plays heavily in V/M's favor. (<- Have they ever skated to a mediocre latin program?).

In order to stand out, I think P/C should choose a more dramatic and powerful FS ... No more of the contemporary movement-filled programs to softer pieces which they perform excellently. After three seasons of the same ol, same ol ... in what areas have P/C taken risks or showed signs of growth and versatility?

I think V/M are well on their way of winning Worlds 2017 and the Olympics next yr.
V/M have done Latin 3 times and they were good everyone. i even loved their '06 Latin. I wish I had the OD from Junior Worlds every year.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
It is pretty clear V and M will not win gold at the Olympics. PC seem to have the momentum and judges favour deserved or not. I think technically V and M are more vulnerable BUT to be fair P is vulnerable as she is not as strong as C. PC seem to get too high pcs. They are almost the same as V and M who should be like Chan, Kostner or even Hanyu. Except V and M are not that technically weak like Chan with that many errors. V and M should have a wider lead in pcs. And technically PC should find it hard to beat V and M without serous errors because she has major issues or skating deficiencies compared to him. But PC seem to be the chosen ones.
 

olayolay

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
P/C's free dance PCS being on par with V/M's doesn't bother me - both teams have great qualities and are clearly a cut above the rest.

I do think their SD PCS are much too inflated though. They shouldn't even be close to the Shibs IMO, let alone V/M.
 
Top