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Thread: Piseev and the Eastern Bloc

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Question Piseev and the Eastern Bloc

    Is there still an "Eastern Bloc?"

    Alexandra Stevenson, writing in Blades on Ice, makes the point that at the recent ISU Congress, the New Judging System (CoP) passed by a vote of 43 to 54. A proposed amendment by the USA to identify individual judges received a majority (30 to 16) but fell three votes shy of the two-thirds needed to pass.

    A counterproposal put forward by Russia, to retain a version of the old 6.0 system while the CoP underwent more testing, garnered only three votes: Russia, Kazakhstan and Israel. Stevenson editorializes:

    "What a snub this was for Valentin Pissev, the long time head of the Soviet Federation....Russia (remains) one of the most powerful nations in the sport. However, Piseev, obviously, no longer commands the clout he once held over the former Soviet countries."

    Comments?

    Mathman

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    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    I think she's jumping to conclusions. With the way that Speedy was pushing COP forward, steamrolling really, Pissev's last minute effort to retain 6.0 was dead before it even began. Keeping judging anonymous does however help any "bloc", Eastern or otherwise, so a much greater battle was won. COP produced very few surpise winners last season. Letting a host federation keep an outdated system would be a PR disaster for the ISU who is desperate to put spin on the SLC scandal. The initiative was doomed to fail from the get go.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Well, that looks to me like Piseev won one and lost one. He managed to protect the identity of the judges even though the majority wanted to get rid of secrrecy.

    (I've never understood that the punishment of the French as the sole collaborators in the SLC scandal and Piseev and the Russian dance judge were not penalized. It takes at least two components to collaborate on a scheme.).

    I think we are quite aware of the hesitancy of the Russian Federation to accept the CoP.. I think by the Olys, all Nationals will be by CoP. IMO, he won big on keeping the secrecy but the Cop is not that earth shattering..

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    (I've never understood that the punishment of the French as the sole collaborators in the SLC scandal and Piseev and the Russian dance judge were not penalized. It takes at least two components to collaborate on a scheme.).
    Joe
    What is it that the Russian dance judge actually did in SLC dance competition to get penalized?
    Last edited by Jaana; 08-10-2004 at 07:43 AM.

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    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana
    What is it that the Russian dance judge actually did in SLC dance competition to get penalized?
    Exactly. There was no investigation into the alleged conspiracy. Marie-Reign disgraced/implicated herself and Didier by confessing her own guilt and accusing him of being in on it. If it were true, she should have named names, not clam-up. If there really is a Russian mob controling sporting outcomes, then I'm sure she done enough already to have to keep looking over her shoulder for years to come. It was blatently obvious from the "review" that the French were subjected to, that the ISU has no interest whatsoever in really investigating judging corruption. Rug lifted, scandal swept under, hands cleaned. THE only reason that they slapped her and Didier on the wrists is because the dozy cow forced them to with her crazy blabber mouth. Despite the FBI naming Marina directly, the ISU never persued it.

    Likewise, there was no investigation into the Nagano worlds Ice Dance accusations, and that involved a lot more than just the ramblings of one judge.

    Did anyone see the BBC show recently where they secretly taped IOC members talking about influence buying? At least one IOC member has been ousted because of it. And the IOC had promissed us that the bad guys were gone.


    IMHO, this is way bigger than just two judges. I seriously doubt that Stapleford pressuring LaGorge to admit a falsehood is really what happened. M-R isn't that emotionally unstable. Nothing is going to be done until epople name names, and that's just not gonna happen.

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    George Rossano wrote a paper about bias in judging and CoP, and he concluded that biased judges, working in colloboration, absolutely could affect the outcome of a skating competition.

    http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/curre...t/stm_bias.htm

    Piseev may not have gotten his way on the 6.0 proposal, but I think it may have been a red herring to keep some federations from voting for the end to secrecy proposal. Secrecy is a staunch protector of judges' colloboration.

    So despite the introduction of CoP, nothing has really been done to ensure that a judging scandal such as the one at SLC won't happen again. All that has been done is ensuring that we won't find out about it until it is too late, if at all.
    Last edited by euterpe; 08-10-2004 at 10:23 AM.

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    GOLDEN DREAMS RealtorGal's Avatar
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    Is there a public justification for voting to maintain secrecy in judging? I mean, after the judging scandal, how can one justify to the public a vote to retain secrecy?

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    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealtorGal
    Is there a public justification for voting to maintain secrecy in judging? I mean, after the judging scandal, how can one justify to the public a vote to retain secrecy?
    Not sure what you mean, but the offical excuse from Speedy and Co. is that if the marks aren't tracable, then the judges can vote as their hearts dictate. If the marks are tracable, then bad people will be able to tell if the judge they pressured voted as they dictated or not. So in Speedy's world, the Russian mob (or whomever) will still treaten the French and Russian judges for example, it's just that now Marie-Reign and her ilk can vote as they please and the mob won't know for sure that she didn't vote as they told her to.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Here I go as devil's advocate again (the devil being Speedy C. )

    IMHO Cinquanta, far from being a tool of the powerful voting blocs, has a vision of the ISU gradually achieving independence and authority over the sport in its own right. In his mind, the secrecy thing is a step in the right direction in freeing the judging process from political control of the federations.

    To me, this goal makes sense. It is, after all, the main job of each national federation to get as many medals for its country as possible, by whatever means necessary. In contrast, it is the job of the ISU to advance the fortunes of the sport of figure skating. That's a big difference in outlook.

    As part of approving the CoP, the ISU included a system of oversight and review of judges' marks, and they created a new Code of Ethics and a Disciplinary Commission whose members are directly employed by the ISU. If Cinquanta had his way, all judges would work strictly for the ISU and would not be appointed or recommended by the member federations.

    Mathman

    PS. I agree with Berthes Ghost about the irony of the IOC trying to get on the ISU's case. The IOC, and especially the USOC, has been riddled with politics, corruption and influence peddling for decades.

    BTW, I also read recently that the reason M. Gailhaguet was forced to step down as president of the French Federation was not because of Salt Lake City, his suspension by the ISU, or any of that. Rather it was because he had run the organization into the ground financially, and the Federation is now in the French bankruptcy courts.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Bronzeis - You do well by putting down Didier and LeGougne by their own admission to the collaboration, but you say there was no investigation into who they were collaborating. She didn't name the russian dance judge or Piseev for that matter in the collaboration. So you seem to be saying that the French collaborated with nobody. Can you tell me how one can collaborate with no one and calll it a collaboration? It's not a conspiracy. It's a collaboration.

    What haplpened in SLC was the French judge gave the gold to Russia in Pairs and the Russian judge gave the gold to the French in Dance. This is fact!!! Who else would there be a collaboration with?

    Why there wasn't a further investigation beyond the honesty of LeGounge is moot. There had to be someone. You seem to be saying that there was no further investigation therefore the Russians had nothing to do with this.

    Mathman - Praise to be that Didier is out. Now let's get Piseev.

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    What haplpened in SLC was the French judge gave the gold to Russia in Pairs and the Russian judge gave the gold to the French in Dance. This is fact!!! Who else would there be a collaboration with?
    Joe
    Joe, actually that is not fact and did not happen in that way at all. The Russian judge gave Anissina & Peizeral the second place and for Russia´s own pair that judge of course gave the first place in freedance:

    http://www.aya.or.jp/~polaris/winter_olympic/index.htm

    That is the way the Russian judges seem to work, they support their own skaters, and have been accused of that many times, LOL. Along with the Canadian judges...

    The Russians had the possibility to win BOTH pairs AND ice dance in SLC, why would they have settled for just one gold? A deal would have been more likely if they had not had also an ice dance pair competing about the gold medal. A deal for a Russian judge to vote against their own gold medal hopeful team seems extremely unlikely, in my opinion.

    I have always been wondering the actual reason why in the first place Stapleford questioned the French judge about her vote at all? The pairs were really even and could have gone either way. What other reason was there to question the French judge, unless if it was already beforehand expected from the French judge to give the gold to the Canadian pair and she didn´t?

    Marjaana
    Last edited by Jaana; 08-11-2004 at 03:36 AM.

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    Bronzeis - You do well by putting down Didier and LeGougne by their own admission to the collaboration
    LOL....I stirred the pot without even posting!

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    Since LeGougne said she was pressured before the Dance competition was over, only a complete idiot of a judge would have implicated him/herself by a vote that confirmed a deal. Had it happened after the Dance competition, there may have been an audit trail. If a deal was in the works, not the ramblings of a mob guy who may have just wanted to seem like a big macher to Anissina's mother.

    LeGougne said that she was pressured by Gailhauget, both to Stapleford and then in the referee's meeting in front of the entire judging panel. If she was pressured, there's no reason to believe that Gailhauget gave her any details other than "vote this way, if you know what's good for you." She may not have had any names to name.

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    Well why shouldn't Sally Stapleford question her about it? It was a strange vote in many peoples eyes and as head of the ISU technical commitee at the time, she surely had every right. I just don't buy all this rubbish that she was forced to confess etc. Stapleford did what she thought she had to do and paid for it with her job in the end.

    Otherwise I agree with Hockeyfans assumption. I don't think M-R actually knew anything other than what Didier had told her to do.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BronzeisGolden
    LOL....I stirred the pot without even posting!
    I am so jealous. I am doing everything can to stir up some controversy -- even defending Cinquanta! -- and my posts just come out blah.

    MM

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