Piseev and the Eastern Bloc

[Jaana]

Well why shouldn't Sally Stapleford question her about it? It was a strange vote in many peoples eyes and as head of the ISU technical commitee at the time, she surely had every right.

Well, I saw it as strange that she was questioned, because putting B&S first was not "wrong" or questionable judging. The whole matter looked to me like that it was expected from some reason that she will put the Canadians on the first place and as she did not, she was approached. Like "why did you not put the Canadian pairs as first". It was beforehand decided by certain powers that the Canadians are winning, that is the impression I got from this whole matter.

Marjaana

[berthes ghost]

Well, M-R did say later that she was pressured to vote for the Canadians. Skate Canada wasn't investigated any more than the Russian Federation was. We'll never know what really happened because nobody in power seems to have the slightest interest in getting to the bottom of it.

[Mathman]

Here is ESPN’s take on the “pressure by Canada” issue.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/winter...ews?id=1339812

SALT LAKE CITY -- As the French judge in the middle of the figure skating controversy sat in a meeting the day after the pairs final, something was bothering her. Finally, she said she'd been pressured by her federation, mentioning its president by name.

The emotional outburst was real, the panel's referee said Sunday. There was nothing scripted or staged about it. And contrary to Marie-Reine Le Gougne's latest story, there was no mention of pressure by the Canadians.

"Am I surprised? My surprise is only in that she appears to be changing her statement almost daily," referee Ron Pfenning said from his home in Hyannis, Mass….

An interview mentioning Canadian pressure was published in Sunday's New York Times. Le Gougne said the lobbying effort was led by senior skating officials from Canada and began in September.

"They needed my vote," she was quoted as saying. "It was going to be very close. I was in the middle."…

After the meeting, Pfenning filed a report describing Le Gougne's outburst directly to ISU president Ottavio Cinquanta, who then interviewed Le Gougne personally.

She told him the same thing and signed a written statement: She had been pressured by her federation to vote for the Russians….

However, now Le Gougne says that despite the pressure she voted with her "heart and soul."

She said she only accused Gailhaguet and her federation because she was verbally attacked and felt physically threatened by other skating officials. When she reached her hotel after the event, Stapleford scolded her for voting for the Russians, Le Gougne told L'Equipe.

But several people who saw Le Gougne's exchange with Stapleford dispute her account. It was Le Gougne who approached Stapleford, said Jon Jackson, an ISU judge and an attorney from San Francisco.

"She came right up to Sally Stapleford and said, `Ice dancing is ruining the sport of figure skating. I have to defend myself. I did this for my dance team. It's a deal with the Russians, first place for first place,"' said Jackson, who wrote a letter to Cinquanta about the incident and was later interviewed by ISU investigators.

My personal opinion about the lack of a thorough investigation by the ISU is that there was really nothing to investigate, except business as usual. My impression is that as soon as the judging panels are announced, months in advance, officials of the national federations are expected to start lobbying and lining up support for their skaters.

This seems to be the accepted protocol and culture of the insiders of the sport, especially in ice dance. I think it quite likely that all of Le Gougne’s conflicting stories are true, pressure from the Canadians, the French, the Russians. Not to mention, at the event itself, pressure from the U.S. crowd, from television commentators who shouted that if you thought Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze won, then you were a disgrace to the sport, etc., etc.

Mathman

[Joesitz]

Here is ESPN’s take on the “pressure by Canada” issue.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/winter...ews?id=1339812

My personal opinion about the lack of a thorough investigation by the ISU is that there was really nothing to investigate, except business as usual. My impression is that as soon as the judging panels are announced, months in advance, officials of the national federations are expected to start lobbying and lining up support for their skaters.
Mathman

I don't feel any animosity for the lobbying bit either. But LeGougne herself admited that it was an exchange for France to win the Dance in Gold if the Russians give France the nod. The Russians did just that!. Why do we whitewash them in these threads? It is more than lobbying. Just because there was no investigation does that excuse any Federation from collaborating with another? What would Didier want if it it was not for France to win Dance?

The French accused themselves and the Russians. That was enough for the ISU to pevent any investigation so that a collaboration would not be proven and further wreck the Olympics relationship with the ISU.

IMO, the Russian Federation got off scott free, and my trust in the ISU no longer exists. They can will do whatever they please.

Joe

[Jaana]

I don't feel any animosity for the lobbying bit either. But LeGougne herself admited that it was an exchange for France to win the Dance in Gold if the Russians give France the nod. The Russians did just that!. Joe

Excuse me Joe, but the Russian judge did not do that! The Russian judge put their own team (L&A) on first place to win and not the French dance pair. It was a 5/4 split for the French team.

Marjaana

[Joesitz]

Excuse me Joe, but the Russian judge did not do that! The Russian judge put their own team (L&A) on first place to win and not the French dance pair. It was a 5/4 split for the French team.

Marjaana

Jaana - If that is correct, then what was the point of Didier telling Legounge to put the Russian Pairs team first? Why did the ISU not continue the investigation? Was the Russian dance judge told at the last minuite that the deal is off?

If the Russians were not a part of this, then neither were the French because it takes two to collaborate so what were the French admitting to?

Please understand, I am not bashing the French or the Russians. I just want the truth which we will never know until the book is written in 2050 or the ISU give an honest investigation into the whole matter now.

Joe

[Mathman]

To me, the most telling comment from Le Gougne was when she said that the lobbying began way back in September, because ""They needed my vote,,, It was going to be very close."

What was going to be very close? She can't be referring to the skating, because that hadn't happened yet. So to me, "close" must have meant that as soon as the nationalities of the judging panel were announced, people already knew how many B&S judges there were and how many S&P judges. As Madame Le Gougne goes on to say, she was targeted because she was "in the middle."

Maybe she, unlike the other judges, was waiting to see the actual performances before she cast her vote.

Mathman

[chuckm]

Has it occurred to anyone that the Russian judge may have placed the Russian ice dancers first because the French judge botched the deal and the Russians had to share the gold medal?

I agree that the fact that the ISU never fully investigated the matter casts a shadow on the whole judging process. If colloboration among the judges is commonplace, then protecting the judges from scrutiny under CoP is a bad move.

[Skate Sandee]

Has it occurred to anyone that the Russian judge may have placed the Russian ice dancers first because the French judge botched the deal and the Russians had to share the gold medal?

Yup. It occurs to me everytime someone makes the arguement that there was no deal since the Russian judge put the Russian dance pair first. If one part of a scandal gets uncovered before the plan is over, does anyone seriously believe that the plan would be carried out as planned? I mean "DUH"!

If anything, the timing of the alleged scandal benfited the Russian judge because that person could go ahead and abandon the deal and vote whatever way he/she wanted (in this case for their own skaters).

[Mathman]

If anything, the timing of the alleged scandal benfited the Russian judge because that person could go ahead and abandon the deal and vote whatever way he/she wanted (in this case for their own skaters).

Ah, see, that's the beauty of the secret judging provision of the CoP. Now you will be able to make any deal you want, then doublecross your erstwhile accomplices at the last minute, and no one is the wiser. Pretty clever, if you ask me.

Another thing I thought of was, maybe Le Gougne's vote was not in payment for expected support for Anassina and Peiserat, but rather paying back old debts. Didn't Philippe Candeloro win TWO Olympic bronze medals?

Mathman

[Koroleva]

Oh please! This whole thread is the most rediculous thing I have heard all day.

[hockeyfan228]

There were ten judges on the SLC Dance panel. Each of four judges was the substitute judge for one phase.

Five judges placed A/P 1st in each phase they judged:

Balkov-UKR (CD1, CD2, FD)
Gasiorowska-LTU (CD1, OD, FD)
Karnolska-BUL (all)
Nechkina-AZE (all)
Alperin-HUN (CD1, CD2, OD)

In addition, Gordon-Poltarak-POL scored A/P cumulatively higher than L/A (1st in CD1, CD2, and FD, and 2nd in OD). Although she had L/A in 1st in the OD, she also had them 3rd and 4th in the CD's, making her total ranking after the OD 1-A/P, 2-L/A, and then gave A/P first in the FD.

The judges that had A/P first in all phases judged until the FD were:

Wehinger (SUI)
Shekhovtseva (RUS)

In addition, the following judges had A/P over L/A until the FD:

Wolter (GER)
Zuccaro (ITA)

A/P were unanimously in 1st place going into the FD. Until the FD, it looked like a competition for the silver between L/A and F-P/M, as the total panel was split evenly after the OD (in the phases they judged), with five for each team. One of the judges who had F-P/M over L/A after the OD, Alperin, was the substitute judge in the FD, and F-P/M had mistakes in the FD that really sank them.

[Kateri]

I'm with Koroleva on this one.

I don't know what happened at SLC, but am inclined to think it was more cock-up than conspiracy. I (perhaps foolishly) tend to think that most judges try and judge fairly, although they may of course be unconsciously influenced by cultural biases. But I don't think any more than a tiny minority actually set out to pre-decide the results. (I'll admit that my knowledge is mostly post-1998 though.)

And I'm just not sure I believe that any such thing exists as the "eastern bloc", or if it did once, it is long gone.

I'm from the UK, somewhere that has long felt itself to be half-way between Europe and America in terms of culture. I personally don't feel I have any bias to one side more than the other, and I think that figure-skating judging is not, overall, biased towards one side or the other either. What you do get is bias towards individual skaters on the basis of reputation, but that can affect any nationality.

jmo,

k.

[Mathman]

Oh please! This whole thread is the most rediculous thing I have heard all day.

Oh, come on, K., you are just trying to spoil our fun!

Plus, you have to admit, that Candeloro thing has to have SOME explanation!

MM

[PrincessLeppard]

Oh, poo, Mathman. Candeloro deserved those medals! I don't like his skating now, but as an amateur, he had moments of brilliance. The Godfather, anyone? And The Three Musketeers is one of my all time favorite long programs, and completely deserving of the bronze. It's really the only thing I remember from the men's event, other than Ilia's hideous shirt.

Anyway, sorry to ramble off topic....

Laura

PS In 1994, wasn't he one of the few men to actually stay on his feet?