Medvedeva's 8 triples/Zayak skates

daphna · Jan 28, 2017

I was really surprised that she threw the 3rd triple toe last night at Euros. I thought she did the 8 triples/Zayak LP at nationals simply because it was nationals and she's a goddess in Russia, but after seeing her doing it again last night I'm sure that there is more to it than confidence/cokiness.
I'm 100% sure that Med is testing 8 triple programms because she is planning a valid 8 triple program for the olympics next year. She's capable of a 3 sal-3 loop combo, which will enable her to produce 3 valid 3-3 combos.
Am I correct? or is there a rule iI'm not aware of?

Cherryy · Jan 28, 2017

Nope, you're only allowed to repeat 2 triples, so unless she learns the 3A she won't be able to skate a valid 8-triple program.

She's certainly not going to go for the triple axel. I personally think she's doing the 3rd triple toe just because she can and in order to be even better prepared for worlds. Afterall, if she proved she can skate 8-triple program and did that twice already, having a task of performing "just" 7 triples should be easier. The confidence boost should help her menatlly, not that she needs it that much anyway :biggrin:

.

The more interesting question is what do people think about it? Cause I read some comments saying she shouldn't be doing that/it's cheeky/should get penalized. Again, I personally admire her for that since she's pushing her own boundaries but I'd like to see why some people think it'd be better if she stuck to the rules.

sarama · Jan 28, 2017

She can't do an eight triple program without a 3axel. The rules don't allow for more than two repetitions of triples, so of you can do 5 triples(toe, Sal, loop, flip, Lutz) you can do a maximum of eight triples no matter how you arrange them. I don't see Medvedeva doing a triple axel, but maybe a quad salcow is doable for her.
I have no idea why she is throwing in invalid jumps, I find it quite weird

moriel · Jan 28, 2017

Cherryy said:
Nope, you're only allowed to repeat 2 triples, so unless she learns the 3A she won't be able to skate a valid 8-triple program.

She's certainly not going to go for the triple axel. I personally think she's doing the 3rd triple toe just because she can and in order to be even better prepared for worlds. Afterall, if she proved she can skate 8-triple program and did that twice already, having a task of performing "just" 7 triples should be easier. The confidence boost should help her menatlly, not that she needs it that much anyway .

The more interesting question is what do people think about it? Cause I read some comments saying she shouldn't be doing that/it's cheeky/should get penalized. Again, I personally admire her for that since she's pushing her own boundaries but I'd like to see why some people think it'd be better if she stuck to the rules.

I think it is great and pushes the sport forward - for instance imho, ISU should allow 3-3-3 combos and so on.
Same with tanos, backloading and everything else - as those things are not easy at all, and most skaters cannot do them (see that girl at USA nationals who tried to pull a Zagitova and backload all her jumps and what happened) - so they are forced to do something else in order to have a chance.

puremagic · Jan 28, 2017

Hmm. Let's think.

Her combination which bother me is only 2a-2t-2t. Especially if compared to other jumps.
All her package for this moment:

3F-3T
3Lz (!)
3Lo
3F
2A-2T-2T
3S+3T
2A

At training she's doing even 3F+3Lo, or 3F+3T+3Lo. There are many combinations which she could use.
I wonder why she jumps two axels? If I remember right a mandatory element is one axel. She could easy jump 3S+2T+2T, or just 3S instead 2A. Or am I wrong? And mandatory two axels?

Just for test:

3F+3Lo
3Lz (!)
3F+3T
3S+3T+2T
3S
3Lo
2A

What's wrong here? Each element used only two times. :scratch2:

Tolstoj · Jan 28, 2017

She did it just for fun and to prove that she is the best even with 8 triples.

But at a certain point that could push ISU to change the rule allowing a 3-3-3.

alena2580 · Jan 28, 2017

Just for test:

3F+3Lo
3Lz (!)
3F+3T
3S+3T+2T
3S
3Lo
2A

What's wrong here? Each element used only two times.

In this content you repeat three jumps: 3S, 3T, 3F. It's not allowed.

gravy · Jan 28, 2017

Unless there was some ISU rule instated that I totally missed, 3-3-3 combos are allowed. You just don't see them because you use up all your triples.

This for example, would be valid:

3F+3T+3T
3Lz
3F
3S+2T
3Lo
2A+2T
2A

tulosai · Jan 28, 2017

I was waiting for this :popcorn:

I actually wish they'd keep the same number of jumping passes and combos allowed, but allow 3 triples to be repeated instead of two, enabling skaters who have a variety of combos (and not just combos with triple toes) to add an additional triple jump potentially. So you could do 8 triples instead of 7 (even without a 3A) but only if you could add something other than a toe to a combo.

tulosai · Jan 28, 2017

puremagic said:
Hmm. Let's think.

Her combination which bother me is only 2a-2t-2t. Especially if compared to other jumps.
All her package for this moment:

3F-3T
3Lz (!)
3Lo
3F
2A-2T-2T
3S+3T
2A

At training she's doing even 3F+3Lo, or 3F+3T+3Lo. There are many combinations which she could use.
I wonder why she jumps two axels? If I remember right a mandatory element is one axel. She could easy jump 3S+2T+2T, or just 3S instead 2A. Or am I wrong? And mandatory two axels?

Just for test:

3F+3Lo
3Lz (!)
3F+3T
3S+3T+2T
3S
3Lo
2A

What's wrong here? Each element used only two times.

Each element is only used 2 times, but you can only repeat two triples currently, so doing the 3F, 3T, and 3Lo each two times is zayaking under the current rules. I actually would favor amending this as I said above.

liv · Jan 28, 2017

Rules are rules. If they change the rules, great, but until then follow them.

I remember watching Elaine Zayak, doing the same 3 jump over and over. Great, she could do that jump but it was like a plateau... no progression. Then other people increased difficulty with harder jumps, combos, sequences. Now Zhenya can do her triples all consistently. Great. There are other ways for her to push herself, add the 3A, quad, add 3loop to her 3/3s as the second jump (probably most doable for her), do a Shoma and do an axel into a triple flip. There are so many possibilities. She should push herself by doing that instead of repeating her easiest. I just find that adding another triple on purpose, knowing she gets a deduction for it but does not mind, is disrespectful to her competitors who are all going by the rules.

breadstal · Jan 28, 2017

I think one more triple allowed would be great tbh

nolangoh · Jan 28, 2017

I would like to see a 3-jump or 4-jump combo made of one or two triples and several doubles. I think it is quite fun to watch.

And please cancel the Zayak rule on double jumps.

Miller · Jan 28, 2017

Would have thought easiest things to do would be to do a 2Lo at the back end of her 3 part combo, perhaps with different 1st jump (though she's just shown she can do a 2A-3T), and backload her opening 3F-3T, perhaps with a warm up opening triple.

What she could really do with is a reduction in jumping passes. If there were only 6 she, or any one else would have to 3 difficult combos that are either triple-triple or 2A-triple (including 1Lo options), to still do the max of 7 non-Axel triples and 2 double axels i.e. 6 difficult jumps in 3 passes, plus 3 more over the remaining 3.

Also potential triple axel jumpers wouldn't lose out because initially they'd be looking at replacing a 2A with a 3A and getting the extra 5.2 base points.

Finally, anyone who couldn't do 3 triple-triples or 2A-triples and could only do 2 say, would be looking at a max of 8 difficult jumps i.e. 7 triples plus a 2A or 6 + 2.

acronycal0730 · Jan 28, 2017

Is "third 3T" going to be Evgenia's signature? I hope not, because when she hit the 2A3T and burst into laughter, it interrupted the emotion of the program. She knew that she is going to win and forgot the performance.

But anyway congratulations to her. What a naughty girl she is, I like her guts :biggrin:

mejmej · Jan 28, 2017

My personal opinion is that the Zayak rule a long time ago reached the purpose it was intended for. Skaters do different types of jumps now and they push themselves in order to learn them all or most of them. I can't imagine that we would go back to see programs containing seven 3F's. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Zayak soon will be revised, removing the part that says that only 2 different triples or quads can be repeated. So that the same rules applies to repetition of both for doubles, triples and for quads. Hence it would be possible for less technically gifted skaters, who only have, lets say, the Salchow, Toeloop and the Loop, to still do a six triples program, which would remove the dependency on double Axels. Not sure how that would help Medvedeva though.

atsumiri · Jan 28, 2017

gravy said:
Unless there was some ISU rule instated that I totally missed, 3-3-3 combos are allowed. You just don't see them because you use up all your triples.

This for example, would be valid:

3F+3T+3T
3Lz
3F
3S+2T
3Lo
2A+2T
2A

in this example... She will lose 10%bonus for second 3T

Violet Bliss · Jan 28, 2017

She's 17 and having fun. I doubt she does all these calculations with all the complicated motives. She's unlikely to play around like this at Worlds or in her twenties.

Maybe she's just being a spontaneous naughty girl while she can.

concorde · Jan 28, 2017

I have a different theory. That opening jump pass is her weakest combination and her coaches know that if she is going to have a problem, that is where it will be.

At GPF, she fell on that opening pass which meant she could only do the first jump of the combination (could not do the 3T). To make up for that, she had to throw in a 3T in combination somewhere else. Which she did.

At the next event, Russian Nationals, we see an 8th truple (3T) This is her "insurance" for missing that opening jump pass again. If she misses it, she does not need to add an extra 3T somewhere since she has been training for it later in the program. If she hits that first pass, then the 8th triple jump (3T) is Zayaked so no harm. It worked there and so it is now her part of her program.

At least that is my theory. If so brilliant strategy by her coaches since she is strong enough to pull it off. Not sure how many other ladies can do this.

Miller · Jan 28, 2017

concorde said:
I have a different theory. That opening jump pass is her weakest combination and her coaches know that if she is going to have a problem, that is where it will be.

At GPF, she fell on that opening pass which meant she could only do the first jump of the combination (could not do the 3T). To make up for that, she had to throw in a 3T in combination somewhere else. Which she did.

At the next event, Russian Nationals, we see an 8th truple (3T) This is her "insurance" for missing that opening jump pass again. If she misses it, she does not need to add an extra 3T somewhere since she has been training for it later in the program. If she hits that first pass, then the 8th triple jump (3T) is Zayaked so no harm. It worked there and so it is now her part of her program.

At least that is my theory. If so brilliant strategy by her coaches since she is strong enough to pull it off. Not sure how many other ladies can do this.

She didn't fall at GPF, only stepped out, and easily did 3F-3T in 2nd half. However at Worlds last year also made a mistake on opening 3F-3T in the SP, but it may just be nerves. You're possibly right about 3S-3T-3T, however would still want to do a 3F in combo somewhere, her Lutz isn't up to it, or just too risky that she might get an edge call.

Medvedeva's 8 triples/Zayak skates

daphna

Cherryy

sarama

moriel

puremagic

-

Tolstoj

alena2580

gravy

¿No ven quién soy yo?

tulosai

tulosai

liv

breadstal

nolangoh

Steps and Spirals enthusiast

Miller

acronycal0730

mejmej

atsumiri

Violet Bliss

concorde

Miller

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