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Thread: Top 10 "wuz robbed!"

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  1. #1
    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    Top 10 "wuz robbed!"

    OK, it's the offseason....

    1. Kerrigan in Lillehammar
    2. Fratianne in Lake Placid
    3. Hoffman in Lake Placid
    4. Torvil&Dean in Lillehammar
    5. Blumburg &Seibert in Sarajevo
    6. Sumners in Sarajevo
    7. 8. 9. 10. tbd

    Which results have you ?

  2. #2
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    Berthes.........I agree.........I would add Elvis in Lillehammer......42
    Last edited by show 42; 08-12-2004 at 06:45 PM.

  3. #3
    Eville Eastern Bloc Poster
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    1. Lulu at Worlds 1996 in Edmonton
    2. Irina in the SP at Oly's 2002 in SLC
    3. Kulik at Worlds 1996 in Edmonton
    4. Abt at Euros 2002 in Lausanne
    5. Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze at Worlds 2001 in Vancouver
    6. Shen/Zhao at Worlds 1999 in Helsinki
    7. Abt at Worlds 2002 in Nagano (should've been Yags, Abt, Honda)
    8. Lambiel in the LP at Worlds 2004 in Dortmund

    That's all I can think of right now.

    Anke

  4. #4
    Rooting for the Kerrs!
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    In no particular order:

    1) Stephane Lambiel, 2004 Worlds LP (should have been second, NOT fourth)
    2) Alexander Abt, 2002 Europeans LP (should have been first, not second)
    3) Torvill & Dean, 1994 Olympics FD (should have been first, not third)
    4) Irina Slutskaya, 2002 Olympics SP (should have been first, not second)
    5) Todd Eldredge, 2001 Worlds LP (should have been second, not third)
    6) Shen & Zhao, 1999 Worlds LP (should have been first, not second)
    7) Chengjiang Li, 2003 Worlds LP (should have been third, not fourth)
    8) Nancy Kerrigan, 1994 Olympics LP (should have been first, not second, although I much much prefer Oksana's skating)

    Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head, decisions that I mostly don't understand at all, as in "how in the heck can they give them that placement?? Are they even watching????????"

  5. #5
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    Let me see:

    1. Michelle Kwan & Sarah Hughes, 2002 GPF 2nd LP - I thought both Michelle and Sarah skated far better than Irina that night. I know Michelle had the fall, but Irina was sloppy and only landed four clean triple jumps. I was sort of shocked when her marks popped up....they were quite high for technical merit and not deservedly so, IMHO. But, I like Irina, so I wasn't extremely peeved!


    2. Todd Eldredge, 2001 Worlds LP - I thought he deserved silver also. His LP was excellent. Alexei was as riveting as always, but I felt Todd had a slight edge over him.

    3. Nancy Kerrigan, 1994 Olympics LP - I love Oksana and I also prefer her style....but I felt Nancy deserved the gold that night. I know the technical mark is not all about the jumps, but Oksana's 3f was flawed and the 2a/2t combo was very messy. I agree that it was a close contest, but I thought Nancy had the edge.

    4. Elvis Stojko, 1994 Olympics LP - There aren't too many that agree with me on this one. But, I always enjoyed that particular LP of Elvis's and felt, overall, he was the best. I've never been a big Urmanov fan, though. He had a nice quality on the ice, but I was always left feeling sort of cold after his performances.

    5. Vanessa Gusmeroli, 2000 Worlds LP - Vanessa was never a brilliant artist or a masterful technician, but her "Legends of the Fall" LP in Nice was so wonderful. I was so proud of her for putting down a brilliant skate. I would have definitely put her at least above Butirskaya in the LP, possibly even Slutskaya. It was a great moment for her.

    6. Michelle Kwan, 1995 Worlds SP - I agree with her LP placement, but fifth place for the most technically difficult program in the SP phase was a bit low. She hadn't refined her presentation skills yet, but she certainly deserved to be in at least 4th above a flawed Bonaly.

    7. Woetzl & Steuer, 1998 Olympics LP - Sorry, I am probably very alone on this one, but I thought they deserved the silver medal. B&S were sublime and wonderful, etc....but they made some big mistakes. W&S had small mistakes, but I felt overall they were slightly better...but that is just me of course!

    8. Maria Butirskaya, 1998 Worlds LP - I thought Maria deserved the silver medal in Minneapolis. Irina was unpolished and extremely sloppy...and her much touted set of 3/3s weren't that clean or spectacular.

    9. Ina & Zimmerman, 2002 Olympics LP - I would have had them at least in 4th over the uninspiring T&M.

    10. Angela Nikidinov, 2001 Nationals LP - Sarah skated a very good program and I wouldn't necessarily say it was robbery, but I personally always felt Angela had the better skate that night. I would have given Angela the silver.

  6. #6
    ~ Evgeni's Sex Bomb ~
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    1. Alexander Abt - 2002 Euros. There was no contest here, the judges went on name recognition alone.

    2. Matt Savoie - US Nationals 2002 - should've had the bronze and gone to the Olympics. Mike Weiss was beyond putrid in that performance, but was completely held up.

    Those are the only two that get my blood boiling. While I think Evgeni should've won GPF 2001, I can see it going either way.

    Laura

  7. #7
    In my heart, I'm actually Canadian....
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    Quote Originally Posted by BronzeisGolden
    Let me see:

    1. Michelle Kwan & Sarah Hughes, 2002 GPF 2nd LP - I thought both Michelle and Sarah skated far better than Irina that night. I know Michelle had the fall, but Irina was sloppy and only landed four clean triple jumps. I was sort of shocked when her marks popped up....they were quite high for technical merit and not deservedly so, IMHO. But, I like Irina, so I wasn't extremely peeved!

    4. Elvis Stojko, 1994 Olympics LP - There aren't too many that agree with me on this one. But, I always enjoyed that particular LP of Elvis's and felt, overall, he was the best. I've never been a big Urmanov fan, though. He had a nice quality on the ice, but I was always left feeling sort of cold after his performances.

    7. Woetzl & Steuer, 1998 Olympics LP - Sorry, I am probably very alone on this one, but I thought they deserved the silver medal. B&S were sublime and wonderful, etc....but they made some big mistakes. W&S had small mistakes, but I felt overall they were slightly better...but that is just me of course!

    8. Maria Butirskaya, 1998 Worlds LP - I thought Maria deserved the silver medal in Minneapolis. Irina was unpolished and extremely sloppy...and her much touted set of 3/3s weren't that clean or spectacular.

    9. Ina & Zimmerman, 2002 Olympics LP - I would have had them at least in 4th over the uninspiring T&M.
    I would agree with most of this:
    1- Irina for some reason always seems to get held up at the GPF; she could go out to center ice and sit in a lawn chair for 4 1/2 minutes and still win the freeskate. She's won 3 of them, and IMO she only deserved 1 of them.

    4 - This is one of those "style preference" situations; most North Americans find Stojko dynamic and Urmanov out-and-out boring; most Europeans may feel quite the oppisite. In this case, I too fall into the "North American" category, which, germanice, explains where this "Elvis should've won in Lillehammer" comes from. IMO, Urmanov was dull, ridicolously costumed, and why would you insert some sort of "weird wacky knees" sequence into what is supposed to be an "ultra-classical" program??

    7- No, you're not alone. Jelena falls on Anton's head, they go down in a heap, and apparently this was considered to be QUITE artistic, based on the marks given, plus they made some other errors too. As far as I'm concerned, HUGE errors, especially those that should not be made once one gets out of the Junior level, deserve HUGE deductions, and from ANY PAIR NOT COACHED BY TAMARA MOSKVINA in that competition, IMO they would have been taken. I was so irritated by the marks this pulled in that I almost turned the TV off before the competition was over.

    8- ITA, and I'd take it one step further. Butrskaja should have won not only the silver in 98, but the bronze in 96 and 97. Gusmeroli in 97 was merely "meh" and Slutskaya in her early days was mostly coasting by on pure personality, because there was really nothing about her skating that was all that spectacular.

    9- I feel the same way. And once I found out that T/M ended up ahead of I/Z, I kind of had a feeling the way the rest of the competition was going to go. And turned out I was right. I considered this kind of a foreshadowing of the whole Sale/Pelletier-Bereznaja/Sikharulidze thing.

    Some additional "we wuz robbed"s:

    Blumberg & Seibert, Sarajevo, definitely. One judge takes it upon herself to decide which music has the proper tempo and which does not, which would have been one thing had she applied the same rules to Torvill & Dean. 20 years later and I still want to throw rotten vegetables at that woman.

    Krylova & Ovsiannakov, 97 Worlds. "Masquerade Waltz" was one of the most brilliant free dances of the late 90s and should have pulled 6s. Gritshuk & Platov, for them, were quite good, too, but they made a couple of errors and should have been 2nd to K/O.

    Anissina & Peizerat, 99 Worlds. However, I guess it all came out in the wash because 2 years later, Krylova & Ovsiannakov should have been 2nd to Anissina & Peizerat. Not only was K/O's free dance a really bad imitation of the Duchesnay's Jungle classic, it was also unbeleivably simple in composition and footwork and from a pure difficulty level it was not even top 10 stuff, tho they sold it well. A/P were much more difficult and interesting.

    Michael Weiss, 98 Nationals. Weiss, back when he was still dyamic and interesting, loses out to Eldredge on one of his less enthralling nights because the US judges still operate under the impression that if we send someone to the Olympics without giving them a National title, the Olympic judges won't give them a gold medal. This despite the fact that Eldredge had already won his World title the year he lost the Nationals. If Weiss had won as he'd deserved to, Eldredge may have done better at Nagano because he always put on his best performances when he was PO'ed over previous results.

    Brasseur & Eisler, Shishkova & Naumov, Eltsova & Bushkov, Meno & Sand, Kovarikova & Novotny, Rahkamo & Kokko, Lillehammer. Who CARES how many years (especially in the case of R/K) you've been putting the time in and working your way up to get your way into Olympic medal contention? Let's bring the pros back and place them ahead of you. You want an Olympic medal, surely you can wait around another 4 years..... :sheesh: :sheesh:

    Drobiazko & Vanagas, 01 Worlds. The uproar in Vancouver was over Shae-Lynn and Vic not winning the bronze. IMO the couple that got truly ripped off was Drobiazko & Vanagas, who should have been on the podium over Lobacheva & Averbukh.

    Punsalan & Swallow, 92 Nationals. I thought the unwritten rule was supposed to be, you send the best team possible to the Olympics, so therefore manipulating results at Olympic year Nationals is permissible to get the best team. So why didn't they hold up Punsalan & Swallow in 92? Defending National champs, an impressive 11th in their first Worlds, and yes they made a mistake in their free dance but SO WHAT? Mistakes have never been overlooked before? And they send Mayer & Breen instead?? What a waste of an Olympic berth. And to make things worse, this set a trend for leaving Punsalan & Swallow, arguably our best dance couple, at home for several seasons so once they finally got to go to Worlds again, they pretty much had to start moving through the ranks all over again. I've always felt that if they'd been sent to Albertville, their career would have turned out much differently.

  8. #8
    SkateFan4Life
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    1. Kerrigan in Lillehammar
    No way. Kerrigan skated with a stiff, almost arrogant demeanor, and she doubled her first planned triple jump. Her artistry was manufactured, and it did not come from her heart. I give Kerrigan all the credit in the world for overcoming the horrendous knee clubbing, and she skated two strong programs
    at the Olympics, but she fairly and squarely won silver, not gold. Oksana Baiul skated her heart and soul out at Lillehammar, and that made the difference.

    2. Fratianne in Lake Placid
    Oh, boy, here we go again. Annet Poetszch won fairly and squarely, according to the rules of the day. School figures counted for 30 percent of the total score, with 20 percent to the short program and 50 percent to the long program. Annet was an outstanding school figures skater, and Fratianne always buried herself with her relatively weak school figures and had to play catch up. Annet's short and long programs at Lake Placid were uninspiring, but they did the job.
    Had Fratianne skated with more fire in the long program, she might have won.
    She also skated before Poetszch, so the judges had to hold back on the marks.
    Still, I'm not about to second guess the judges on this competition.

    3. Hoffman in Lake Placid
    The judges properly placed Robin Cousins first and Hoffman second. Hoffman's artistry was, well, pretty non-existent. I remember reading an article on the men's Lake Placid competition that compared Hoffman as an "expertly rotating wooden tree". Yes, he was a strong jumper, and he had better school figures than Cousins, but Cousin's was a marvelously artistic skater and a strong jumper as well. Cousins won the gold fairly and squarely.

    4. Torvil&Dean in Lillehammar
    Sorry, folks. T&D rolled out a "retrospective long program" that was more or less their "greatest hits" from past programs. It was a program they had just rechoreographed and were trying to refine. It was a good, solid program, but it wasn't up the level of "Bolero", "Barnum", "Mack and Mabel", or any of their other previous championship programs. They deserved to be on the podium, but not in first place. Perhaps second, but not first.

    5. Blumburg &Seibert in Sarajevo
    Yes, they were robbed, bigtime!!! Blumberg & Siebert should have won the bronze medal. Some of the judges scored them low due to their choice of music - a piece of music was absolutely WAS suited to figure skating. This was an injustice, which, quite frankly, should have had the USFSA screaming at the top of their lungs.

    6. Sumners in Sarajevo
    No - Katarina Witt won fairly and squarely. Sumners won the school figures, then finished a dismal fifth in the short and second in the long. Witt was third in figures, and she won both short and long programs. Had Sumners skated ALL of her triples in her long program, she would have won a narrow victory over Witt. As it was, the margin was 5-4 for Witt. Sumners gave that title away.
    She was not robbed.

    All of this IMHO, of course.

  9. #9
    Rooting for the Kerrs!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFan4Life
    4. Torvil&Dean in Lillehammar
    Sorry, folks. T&D rolled out a "retrospective long program" that was more or less their "greatest hits" from past programs. It was a program they had just rechoreographed and were trying to refine. It was a good, solid program, but it wasn't up the level of "Bolero", "Barnum", "Mack and Mabel", or any of their other previous championship programs. They deserved to be on the podium, but not in first place. Perhaps second, but not first.
    When judging a competition, a skater or team is supposed to be compared to the performances of their rivals, not to their own performances in the past. If someone doesn't think Face The Music is as strong a programme as Mack & Mabel, Barnum or Bolero, that's fair enough. However, that should not be taken into account when deciding a placement in a particular competition. I believe T&D should have placed first in 1994 because I think their programme is better than either G&P's or U&Z's, that it's stronger and more difficult, and because they had the best performance on the night, among other reasons. Not because they won the Olympics with Bolero 10 years before, which should be irrelevant if you're judging a competition fairly. JMO.

    It's similar to, say, Michelle Kwan in the 03 Worlds. IMO, Aranjuez isn't anywhere near as strong a programme as the likes of Salome, but when judging, that fact should be irrelevant, and Michelle won because she was better than Sokolova on the night.
    Last edited by icenut84; 08-19-2004 at 06:39 AM.

  10. #10
    SkateFan4Life
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    Quote Originally Posted by icenut84
    When judging a competition, a skater or team is supposed to be compared to the performances of their rivals, not to their own performances in the past. If someone doesn't think Face The Music is as strong a programme as Mack & Mabel, Barnum or Bolero, that's fair enough. However, that should not be taken into account when deciding a placement in a particular competition. I believe T&D should have placed first in 1994 because I think their programme is better than either G&P's or U&Z's, that it's stronger and more difficult, and because they had the best performance on the night, among other reasons. Not because they won the Olympics with Bolero 10 years before, which should be irrelevant if you're judging a competition fairly. JMO.
    Ah, but that does not erase the fact that Torvill and Dean's 1994 Olympic free skate was filled with moved from their past programs. As I said, it was a well skated retrospective of their past championship programs. They skated a similar "flashback" long program at Europeans and won, narrowly; however, they received a lot of criticism for the "staleness" of the program, and they went back to the drawing board and rechoregraphed the program six weeks before the Olympics. Talk about pressure. As I wrote, they certainly skated well, but they did not have the fire or the speed of the other top two teams. I know that a lot of their fans were outraged at the decision, but I stand my my opinion.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFan4Life
    Ah, but that does not erase the fact that Torvill and Dean's 1994 Olympic free skate was filled with moved from their past programs. As I said, it was a well skated retrospective of their past championship programs.
    Every time I read this argument I could cry. Come on - for every skater / pair / dance couple who repeats a certain move (do I have to mention a certain spiral by a certain female skater??) several people talk about "signature moves" and go WOW. If T&D choose to do it - it's a bad bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFan4Life
    They skated a similar "flashback" long program at Europeans and won, narrowly; however, they received a lot of criticism for the "staleness" of the program, and they went back to the drawing board and rechoregraphed the program six weeks before the Olympics. Talk about pressure.
    Pressure yes. Does pressure mean the judges have to mark them down? If at all this would be taken into account, common sense would say - such a performance under pressure might be appreciated by the audience. Concerning the judges I would say, this should have no influence at all to the marks.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFan4Life
    As I wrote, they certainly skated well, but they did not have the fire or the speed of the other top two teams. I know that a lot of their fans were outraged at the decision, but I stand my my opinion.
    So - this is the one point in your list which is completely subjective - for me (!) they had the fire. Much more than U&Z definitely. G&P were skating too frantically for me - as they did most of the time. As I said - subjective thing which would come into account in the second mark for a judge. And T&D lost on the TECH mark, not in the presentation iirc. Seems the judges hat not that much problem with T&D's enthusiasm or lack thereof.......
    Last edited by tdnuva; 08-19-2004 at 10:10 AM.

  12. #12
    On Edge Piel's Avatar
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    Are fire , passion, heart, desire, whatever you call it supposed to make up for, flutzing, underrotated jumps, and other technical mistakes?

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