The abhorrent state of PCS judging

gsyzf said:

Well, he doesn't have a better choice unless he can do other quad combo like 4lo3t to replace his problematic jump. He struggles with 4s3t in the 1st half too. He failed more often in the 1st half than succeed in the 1st half. That's just his nemesis jump regardless of where it is.

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Oh stop this irrational reasoning. He landed 4S3T in the first half of the program 2 times this season and with good GOE too. It's not like he doesn't have any other option. If he wants it safe, he should have do 4S3T in the first half of his LP. Not in the 2nd half when he hasn't landed it once.
Not to mention, he has landed solo 4S this whole season in the first half.

Meoima said:

Oh stop this irrational reasoning. He landed 4S3T in the first half of the program 2 times this season and with good GOE too. It's not like he doesn't have any other option. If he wants it safe, he should have do 4S3T in the first half of his LP. Not in the 2nd half when he hasn't landed it once.
Not to mention, he has landed solo 4S this whole season in the first half.

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He popped 3 his 4s3t in the 1st half. So he failed more often than he succeeded. So, it's still a problematic jump comb. He just doesn't have a better option. 4t3t is now a worse option because the risk of injury is higher. 4lo3t is not a better option yet because he can't do it yet.

You can choose to believe athletes are irrational. But they are not irrational people. If they choose to stick to something, it means that's the best option they have at that time. The other options are worse.

gsyzf said:

Every risky thing they do need to be compensated with some reward. For things likes new quads that's super risky, there would have to super big reward, e.g. many points even for failed attempts, or because one must need it to compete, they won't do it. You can believe athletes are irrational. But they always have a rational reason to do what they choose to do.

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Yet you haven't told me what the reward is for changing the transitions into quads for example.
And I'm not saying athletes are irrational. I'm saying your definition of what is rational is narrow-minded and wrong.

gsyzf said:

He popped 3 his 4s3t in the 1st half. So he failed more often than he succeeded. So, it's still a problematic jump comb. He just doesn't have a better option. 4t3t is now a worse option because the risk of injury is higher. 4lo3t is not a better option yet because he can't do it yet.

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That is, again, completely besides the point The topic is why in the 2nd half, not in the first one. He didn't land 4S3T in the 2nd half at all. He landed it twice in the 1st half. 1st half would be a better option. Why does he do it in the 2nd half?

gsyzf said:

He popped 3 his 4s3t in the 1st half. So he failed more often than he succeeded. So, it's still a problematic jump comb. He just doesn't have a better option. 4t3t is now a worse option because the risk of injury is higher. 4lo3t is not a better option yet because he can't do it yet.

You can choose to believe athletes are irrational. But they are not irrational people. If they choose to stick to something, it means that's the best option they have at that time. The other options are worse.

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It's just simple as this.
Yuzuru has landed 4S3T in the first half of the season 2 times with huge GOE.
He has landed solo 4S in the first half whole season.
He has never landed 4S3T in the second half.

Easy way to fix the 4S3T in the second half: move it to the first half.

I'm enjoying reading Yuzuru Hanyu is a sad loser because he can't jump anything else but 4S3T...

Li'Kitsu said:

Yet you haven't told me what the reward is for changing the transitions into quads for example.
And I'm not saying athletes are irrational. I'm saying your definition of what is rational is narrow-minded and wrong.

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Doing transitions raise the GOE and PCS. But how much they raise depend on the judges. If judges like the transitions, they give you much higher GOE & PCS for those transitions, if they don't like them too much, they can give you very little GOE & PCS. Basically that's outside of your control, i.e. it's up to the judges how much they want to reward you. Doing new quad raises the BV significantly. That's something you can control, but it's also much more risky. If someone finds doing new quads too risky, then he can choose to do more transitions to gain points in GOE & PCS. But once he finds that a lower BV with transitions can't beat a program with similar BV or higher BV anymore, then he would be forced to do new quads in order to stay competitive.

Li'Kitsu said:

That is, again, completely besides the point The topic is why in the 2nd half, not in the first one. He didn't land 4S3T in the 2nd half at all. He landed it twice in the 1st half. 1st half would be a better option. Why does he do it in the 2nd half?

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if the plan is to do new quad, e.g. 4lz in the 1st half eventually, then there is no need to try 4s3t in the 1st half because his final layout doesn't have 4s3t in the 1st half anyway. You also lose time to test 4s3t in the 2nd half this season. It's better to find problems this season and adjust the layout because you still have some time to find better options, e.g. 4lo3t, than to find problems in the olympic season and can't adjust the layout because it's too late.

ETA:
Also, hanyu has been doing combos in the 2nd half of fs since he was junior in order to get 10% bonus. So his body is already customed to that kind of layout. If he moves his combo to the first half, that could lead to even more mistakes. Chan does solo 3a after quad combo in the first half and 3a combo in the 2nd half even though 3a isn't his best jump. I guess he does that in the lp because he does solo 3a after quad combo in the sp. Whatever layout skaters chose to do, they do it in order to gain most points possible while taking the least risk possible.

This is getting off topic. I'm done with this.

When did this thread derail into talking about Yuzuru's 4S-3T combo? I thought it was about PCS?

xeyra said:

When did this thread derail into talking about Yuzuru's 4S-3T combo? I thought it was about PCS?

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Because I had to get my daily fix...

gkelly said:

You're not going to get positive GOE and are highly unlikely to get 0 on a << downgraded jump (>180 degrees short of rotation, base value the same as a jump with one less rotation). If downgrade is likely, you're better off just doing the jump with one less rotation.

For an < underrotated jump, in which the base value is 70% of the intended jump and the GOE reduction is less severe, it is worth more than a lesser jump, especially if you remain upright and avoid the fall deduction.

Or if you've maxed out your other jumps. E.g., a skater who has enough triple-triples or 2A+triples that she can fit 7 triples and 2 double axels into 6 jump passes might as well use the other jump pass for a 3A or quad attempt if she can rotate it within 180 degrees. As long as it won't be downgraded, she'll earn some positive points for it even if she falls.

But if she's going to fall on a downgraded 3A, she might as well just use the extra jump pass for a simple double jump or single axel with enhancements. Or not do so many triple-triples the better to maximize her GOE.

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Well this one is obvious. But << happens rarely. You can make nice looking < jump but with << it's virtually impossible.