Half of World Top Ten Out of Ladies Worlds

Alex D · Feb 20, 2017

venx said:
No, it doesn't. :confused2:
Why on earth would you consider granting 4 spots to Japanese, Canadian and US senior ladies? They are miles behind Russians. :shocked:

You are really a difficult person to deal with ...

I try one last time, then I leave you to whatever you try to accomplish here.

Canada has two spots, but three world class ladies. Japan has at least five world class ladies, but only three spots. Why should Russia get a 4th, but not Canada a third or Japan a 4th? What makes the Russian ladies more deserving? What about pairs, why not give China a third spot, or the US? What about dance, why not a 4th for USA and Canada?

In the end, the nations have as many spots as they have earned previously and that´s how it is with three being the maximum. We can not gift spots to nations, just because they excel their spots, due huge talent at home or the system that just doesn´t allow more. If we would, then the worlds would stop being worlds, but Asian, US, CAN and Russian championships, with the occasional German pair and French ice dancer. This just sounds boring to me, we have that already at the GP, why add another event for that?

By the way, calling Karen Chen, Ashley Wagner, Gracie Gold, Mariah Bell, Mirai Nagasu, Kaety Osmond, Alaine Chartrand, Gabby Daleman or the Japanese Mai Mihara, Marin Honda, Rika Hongo, Satoko Miyahara, Wakaba Higuchi, Mao Asada miles behind, is nothing but rude. There can only be one winner each year and right now, said winner is a Russian, just like it was Mao or Kim before.

zanadude · Feb 20, 2017

Alex D said:
By the way, calling Karen Chen, Ashley Wagner, Gracie Gold, Mariah Bell, Mirai Nagasu, Kaety Osmond, Alaine Chartrand, Gabby Daleman or the Japanese Mai Mihara, Marin Honda, Rika Hongo, Satoko Miyahara, Wakaba Higuchi, Mao Asada miles behind, is nothing but rude.

The third place score at Europeans was 210.

The first place score at 4CC was 200.

"Miles behind" seems not such.an unfair assessment to me...but I suppose we are now in an era where the use of facts and data is considered "rude". Sad!

b-man · Feb 20, 2017

Alex D said:
Canada has two spots, but three world class ladies. Japan has at least five world class ladies, but only three spots. Why should Russia get a 4th, but not Canada a third or Japan a 4th? What makes the Russian ladies more deserving? What about pairs, why not give China a third spot, or the US? What about dance, why not a 4th for USA and Canada?

In the end, the nations have as many spots as they have earned previously and that´s how it is with three being the maximum. We can not gift spots to nations, just because they excel their spots, due huge talent at home or the system that just doesn´t allow more. If we would, then the worlds would stop being worlds, but Asian, US, CAN and Russian championships, with the occasional German pair and French ice dancer. This just sounds boring to me, we have that already at the GP, why add another event for that?

By the way, calling Karen Chen, Ashley Wagner, Gracie Gold, Mariah Bell, Mirai Nagasu, Kaety Osmond, Alaine Chartrand, Gabby Daleman or the Japanese Mai Mihara, Marin Honda, Rika Hongo, Satoko Miyahara, Wakaba Higuchi, Mao Asada miles behind, is nothing but rude. There can only be one winner each year and right now, said winner is a Russian, just like it was Mao or Kim before.

Russia has ten skaters in the season's best top 20, though many are skating as juniors, I don't think the World Championships would be ruined if Elena Rad, season's best number 7, or even Liza t., season's best number 17, were added to the entries at Worlds. Japan has 4 in the SB top 20, but one I believe is skating as a junior. They have 3 entries and all their skaters entered are in the top 20 SB list. Canada has two entries, and two skaters in the season's best top 20. While I think Chartrand is world class, she is only number 25 on the SB list. The US has 3 entries, and 3 on the top 20 SB list, except SB #12 Nagasu is not an entry in Helsinki. I don't think the competition would be ruined if deserving skaters such as Rad, Mirai and Tuk were added, without removing any other entrants. Though I'm sure this proposal would drive a couple posters into cardiac arrest. I believe the ladies have about 37 entries now. I don't think increasing this to 40 would bankrupt the ISU or the Finns, and it might sell an extra ticket or two.

andromache · Feb 20, 2017

zanadude said:
The third place score at Europeans was 210.

The first place score at 4CC was 200.

"Miles behind" seems not such.an unfair assessment to me...but I suppose we are now in an era where the use of facts and data is considered "rude". Sad!

Using data that only favors your side of the argument instead of considering all relevant facts and data is rude. Lol.

1. Satoko Miyahara and Ashley Wagner both skipped 4CCs.
2. You can't compare scores across competitions.
3. If you really want to play that dumb game, let's look how the men did: the fifth place score at 4CCs was 267. The second place score at Europeans was 266. Sad! Thank god for small-country skater Javier Fernandez who once placed 35th at Worlds actually being decent enough to keep Europeans somewhat relevant! Poor European men - miles behind everyone else. Maybe the US and Japanese men should get an extra spot or two. They can have the Russian mens' spots.

brightphoton · Feb 20, 2017

andromache said:
Using data that only favors your side of the argument instead of considering all relevant facts and data is rude. Lol.

1. Satoko Miyahara and Ashley Wagner both skipped 4CCs.
2. You can't compare scores across competitions.
3. If you really want to play that dumb game, let's look how the men did: the fifth place score at 4CCs was 267. The second place score at Europeans was 266. Sad! Thank god for small-country skater Javier Fernandez who once placed 35th at Worlds actually being decent enough to keep Europeans somewhat relevant! Poor European men - miles behind everyone else. Maybe the US and Japanese men should get an extra spot or two. They can have the Russian mens' spots.

Bwahahahaha :laugh:

Our country should get all of the spots for Worlds. After all, we have the best athletes, we win all the medals, and w----

Yes? What is it?

What's that? Oh!

Another country is the best at a different discipline or another sport, and they want all the spots?

That's an outrage!!! That's not fair! Every country should get the chance to help grow their talent and show their skaters, not just the big guys.

Stop being greedy!

andromache · Feb 20, 2017

b-man said:
Russia has ten skaters in the season's best top 20, though many are skating as juniors, I don't think the World Championships would be ruined if Elena Rad, season's best number 7, or even Liza t., season's best number 17, were added to the entries at Worlds. Japan has 4 in the SB top 20, but one I believe is skating as a junior. They have 3 entries and all their skaters entered are in the top 20 SB list. Canada has two entries, and two skaters in the season's best top 20. While I think Chartrand is world class, she is only number 25 on the SB list. The US has 3 entries, and 3 on the top 20 SB list, except SB #12 Nagasu is not an entry in Helsinki. I don't think the competition would be ruined if deserving skaters such as Rad, Mirai and Tuk were added, without removing any other entrants. Though I'm sure this proposal would drive a couple posters into cardiac arrest. I believe the ladies have about 37 entries now. I don't think increasing this to 40 would bankrupt the ISU or the Finns, and it might sell an extra ticket or two.

If skaters are given spots by the ISU based on SB lists, this will severely decrease the level of internal competition and the prestige of Nationals, not to mention the potential politicking ramifications for judging - boosting the scores of skaters to make sure they can get to Worlds. Plus, SB lists should not be used to determine Worlds entries, as comparing scores across competitions doesn't work too well.

Not to mention what countries will do in order to send as many skaters as possible - how about the US makes their Worlds team Gracie, Karen, and Amber Glenn, then the ISU sends Ashley, Mirai, and Mariah on the basis of being on the SB list....you see what I'm getting at here, right?

zanadude · Feb 20, 2017

andromache said:
Poor European men - miles behind everyone else. Maybe the US and Japanese men should get an extra spot or two. They can have the Russian mens' spots.

Now you're making sense! Happy that I was able to help us come togethere here. :ghug:

zanadude · Feb 20, 2017

andromache said:
Not to mention what countries will do in order to send as many skaters as possible - how about the US makes their Worlds team Gracie, Karen, and Amber Glenn, then the ISU sends Ashley, Mirai, and Mariah on the basis of being on the SB list....you see what I'm getting at here, right?

That's easy to fix: simply compel the nations to place top ten skaters on their national team first.

sabinfire · Feb 20, 2017

zanadude said:
That's easy to fix: simply compel the nations to place top ten skaters on their national team first.

What would be the point of Nationals for skaters who are in the Top 10? Why not just stay home and rest up for Worlds? Let all the other skaters battle it out, if there's even a spot left on their World team...

andromache · Feb 20, 2017

zanadude said:
That's easy to fix: simply compel the nations to place top ten skaters on their national team first.

So why allow countries to play any role in deciding which skaters to send...just let the ISU pick based on who is the best by ranking and season's best? That's essentially what all of this adds up to, and it brings us back to the beginning...there being no place left for developing skaters from non-skating countries.

b-man · Feb 20, 2017

andromache said:
If skaters are given spots by the ISU based on SB lists, this will severely decrease the level of internal competition and the prestige of Nationals, not to mention the potential politicking ramifications for judging - boosting the scores of skaters to make sure they can get to Worlds. Plus, SB lists should not be used to determine Worlds entries, as comparing scores across competitions doesn't work too well.

Not to mention what countries will do in order to send as many skaters as possible - how about the US makes their Worlds team Gracie, Karen, and Amber Glenn, then the ISU sends Ashley, Mirai, and Mariah on the basis of being on the SB list....you see what I'm getting at here, right?

I think there would have been an outcry in Kansas City if 6th place Gold and 8th place Glenn were put on the podium. Attendance at nationals isn't great as it is, without USFS manipulating results as you suggest. Many people now don't consider FS to be a support. Adding a couple more top competitors at worlds may help reverse that perception.

I'm not so sure adding one or two Russians and an American would decrease internal competition. Competitors will always want to be the champion, will always want to make the podium, even if a 4th place skater also receives an entry to worlds.

SB lists are currently one factor used in deciding some grand prix entries.

StitchMonkey · Feb 20, 2017

lappo said:
To make a comparison with gymnastics, currently dominated by US team, should we take away the 2 spot per country limit in the individual events? If that happened at Rio, probably there would have been an all American podium (Biles, Reysman, Douglas who was the third highest scoring in the qualifiers)...the rule probably allowed Mustafina to win. Yet, it seems to me that no one claimed that Douglas was robbed or that rules should be changed.

Actually there are plenty that don't like this aspect and have commented about it. Many also did not like that the format was such that Laurie Hernandez did not even get to attempt to qualify for all around and should have been allowed to at least attempt it.

I think it actually was Mustifina who tweeted that Jordyn Wieber should have been included in the all around in 2012 when she was 4th but 3rd America. It was one of the Russian gymnasts, who frankly stood to gain from Weiber's exclusion, who made a statement about it. To be blunt sometimes the best want to BEAT the best.

I am not saying it should change, just that there is the viewpoint this is also wrong, including among athletes.

zanadude · Feb 20, 2017

sabinfire said:
What would be the point of Nationals for skaters who are in the Top 10? Why not just stay home and rest up for Worlds? Let all the other skaters battle it out

What's the point of Regionals for skaters who are in the Top 10? Why not just stay home and...oh, wait, that is what they do.

The point of going to Nationals would be the same as the point of going to Europeans or 4CC.

zanadude · Feb 20, 2017

andromache said:
So why allow countries to play any role in deciding which skaters to send...just let the ISU pick based on who is the best by ranking and season's best?

Why indeed! I commend your intelligence, you catch on quick! Nationality should only be a factor in competitions like the Olympics.

That's essentially what all of this adds up to, and it brings us back to the beginning...there being no place left for developing skaters from non-skating countries.

Vijay Singh grew up in Fiji. He didn't have golf balls to hit, so he practised with coconuts. He became the #1 golfer in the world.

Where there's a will there's a way, with or without affirmative action.

Alex D · Feb 20, 2017

b-man said:
Russia has ten skaters in the season's best top 20, though many are skating as juniors, I don't think the World Championships would be ruined if Elena Rad, season's best number 7, or even Liza t., season's best number 17, were added to the entries at Worlds. Japan has 4 in the SB top 20, but one I believe is skating as a junior. They have 3 entries and all their skaters entered are in the top 20 SB list. Canada has two entries, and two skaters in the season's best top 20. While I think Chartrand is world class, she is only number 25 on the SB list. The US has 3 entries, and 3 on the top 20 SB list, except SB #12 Nagasu is not an entry in Helsinki. I don't think the competition would be ruined if deserving skaters such as Rad, Mirai and Tuk were added, without removing any other entrants. Though I'm sure this proposal would drive a couple posters into cardiac arrest. I believe the ladies have about 37 entries now. I don't think increasing this to 40 would bankrupt the ISU or the Finns, and it might sell an extra ticket or two.

I know about that list, as I looked it up before posting

That being said, I used the list in a different way, as I wanted to see how scores progressed and how well everyone did so far and less as a ranking of the worthy and unworthy

1	Evgenia Medvedeva	Russia	229.71	2017 Europeans
2	Satoko Miyahara	Japan	218.33	2016–17 Grand Prix Final
3	Anna Pogorilaya	Russia	216.47	2016–17 Grand Prix Final
4	Kaetlyn Osmond	Canada	212.45	2016–17 Grand Prix Final
5	Carolina Kostner	Italy	210.52	2017 Europeans
6	Alina Zagitova	Russia	207.43	2016–17 JGP Final

For me, the top six have one thing in common, they skated at the GP final and or at Europeans. Athletes not at those event´s, had a clear disadvantage. Why are the scores so high at these two event´s, I wonder? Did the judges maybe give higher marks?

Without having seen Europeans nor 4 CC, I won´t judge this, but it would make an interesting Analysis.

That being said, the majority of these numbers are just that, numbers. We saw at Boston what happened didn´t we? Not one Japanese lady won a medal, even though we had seven in that list!

A true world class athlete, will shine when it matters, or have we all forgotten what Anna did at Boston or Ashley? These two, were off the radar for many, we had Evgenia, Satoko, Mao podiums everywhere, but then, it were the two underdogs, that joined Evgenia.

Besides that, a clean Osmond / Gold, or Satoko, could always compete with Evgenia, even if the OP might call them "miles away"... Yes, Gracie is currently out, but she is still a top skater, just like Mao Asada who also has to watch worlds from home. Two skaters not in that list, yet among the best of the past years.

Should we ignore all the achievements by these two now, just because they are no longer listed? Don´t get me wrong, I agree that one additional skater won´t hurt anybody, which is why I felt Liza should have been given a wildcard for Boston, as the defending champion, but that is as far I would go.

venx · Feb 20, 2017

Alex D said:
You are really a difficult person to deal with ...

I try one last time, then I leave you to whatever you try to accomplish here.

Canada has two spots, but three world class ladies. Japan has at least five world class ladies, but only three spots. Why should Russia get a 4th, but not Canada a third or Japan a 4th? What makes the Russian ladies more deserving?

Because Russia has ten world class ladies, next year will have 15, next year 20, 30 and so on.
Then, around year 2024, the most talented crop of "Lipnitskaya's effect" babies and their moms are gonna taste three international spots rule on their own skin and there will be loud parental "whattaf" spreading from St. Petersburg to Vladivostok and decline will follow (tennis anyone?).
In next decade Asian countries are going to take over the sport completely, apart from dance. Cool for me, my beloved Marin and Eunsoo, but for the sport? :think:

andromache · Feb 20, 2017

zanadude said:
Why indeed! I commend your intelligence, you catch on quick! Nationality should only be a factor in competitions like the Olympics.

Vijay Singh grew up in Fiji. He didn't have golf balls to hit, so he practised with coconuts. He became the #1 golfer in the world.

Where there's a will there's a way, with or without affirmative action.

Nationality not mattering can only work if state-sponsored/federation assistance out of the equation entirely. Because otherwise it becomes a contest of "which country can dominate the most" rather than a competition of individual athletes who happen to be representing their countries. Again, if you're benefiting from enormous assistance/resources because of where you're from, so is your internal competition. Tough luck.

Not sure what affirmative action had to do with this? Sounds like a subject for the politics forum, and that got deleted. Try not to cause too much trouble.

el henry · Feb 20, 2017

Sam-Skwantch said:
I agree that the Olympics are intended for the entire world but where is it written that the figure skating world championships are as such? I can find an Olympic statement on the matter. Has the ISU declared it as such? Is it spelled out that it's for the world and free of the phrase "best" in the world? I'm asking you honestly since you seem so declarative.

"The goal of the Olympic Movement is to contribute to building a peaceful and better world by educating youth through sport practised without discrimination of any kind, in a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play."

Plenty of sports use their world championships to determine the best in the world and still maintain growth in developing countries thru invites and various other means. Ways that are arguably more effective then getting destroyed by the competition at the championship.

Sam, I appreciate that you ask honest questions and I particularly appreciate the respectful tone of your posts.

I have not read the charter and cannot support any argument with that language. I agree with other posters who have said that it doesn't make logistical sense to limit the "all country" participation in the Worlds comps between Olympics if a fed is trying to develop and support its skaters for possible competition in the Olympics. But in the end, it is how you read it. "All the world" or "world class". Me, I'm going with "all the world".:agree:

Miller · Feb 21, 2017

Why isn't the placements rule adjusted? For example it's bizarre that Canada with 2 ladies needs a placements total of 13 or less to get 3 entries, but the US, Japan and Russia get 3 goes at achieving the same total. Shouldn't it be something like less than or equal 17 for 2 ladies? Similarly where a team has strength in depth but is not necessarily granted getting someone in the top 6 which is what you need mathematically to have any chance of getting 13 or less. Shouldn't it be top 2 less than or equal 13, or top 3 less than or equal 25 say. That way you'll get extra skaters, only 1 or 2, and not necessarily guaranteed. I would keep the entries at 3 per discipline, except for perhaps the reigning world champs, they should always get the chance to defend their title.

karne · Feb 21, 2017

Miller said:
Why isn't the placements rule adjusted? For example it's bizarre that Canada with 2 ladies needs a placements total of 13 or less, but the US, Japan and Russia get 3 goes at achieving the same total.

This is incorrect. Where the country has two skaters, only the placements of the two highest placed skaters count for the number. The US men lost three spots because 6 (Adam) + 8 (Max) = 14, and Grant's 10th didn't count. The reason people use that example as an argument however is more to do with the stupidity of losing three spots when all three men were in the top 10. The year before the Japanese fans were wailing that Japan lost three men's spots, but they lost it with 2 (Hanyu) + 12 (Mura), which is less "tragic" (for want of a better word) than what happened to the US men.

Half of World Top Ten Out of Ladies Worlds

Alex D

zanadude

b-man

andromache

brightphoton

andromache

zanadude

zanadude

sabinfire

Doing the needful

andromache

b-man

StitchMonkey

zanadude

zanadude

Alex D

venx

Match Penalty

andromache

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Miller

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

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