Pandora’s Box?2017 4cc men's figure skating

Mathman · Feb 27, 2017

TGee said:
Actually, I am increasingly concerned that a number of excellent elite jump tech coaches are deluding themselves [and their skaters and the parents that fund them] into believing that it's strategic and crucial to get the big BV jumps mastered early in the teens, and then get 'artistry' ....including SS!!!....somewhere down the line.

It was ever thus. Prodigious young skaters start out as "jumping beans." Why? Because this is what prodigious young skaters are good at. Artistic sensibility requires more maturity. We might regard someone like Patrick Chan as being an exception to the rule. He excelled in skating skills first, then added quads. But he did not concentrate on the artistic side until after he was winning championships with his quads, and his results went down, not up, when he did.

Obviously a skater must have solid basics, like quality edge work, effortless acceleration, etc., in order to jump well and in order to present interesting choreography and interpretation. Still, when it comes to learning new jumps at a young age, "how you gonna keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen Paree?"

In the U.S. we have seen a constant parade of artistic skaters, like Jeremy Abbott, Adam Rippon and Jason Brown who added quads later. Sure they did.

(Beautiful skaters, to be sure.)

Mathman · Feb 27, 2017

Interspectator said:
I meant Asian winter games recently finished.

Oh, thank you. My bad.

Yes, that was a badly judged event, in my humble opinion and in in that of most observers. Uno's marks were too high for such a performance, never mind the argument that "well, he is actually a better skater than that."

Edited to add: By the way, the reason that I say the judging was bad is not because of quads versus artistry or anything like that. It is because the wrong person won. Jin skated best and he should have won. The judging system is at fault if it comes out otherwise.

Mrs. P · Feb 27, 2017

Well I don't think Jeremy Abbott's issue with quads has anything to do with the fact he had worked on skating skills. He was perfectly capable, at his peak, to land them. It's just his competition nerves. Maybe if he returns, he'll surprise us.

And Jason and Adam are still in the field, and who knows, maybe Nathan will put a fire in them to make things happen. Time will tell.

YesWay · Feb 27, 2017

Li'Kitsu said:
In that sense: I second Lys. I saw Nathan live in Barcelona 2015, and I was quite disappointed with his skating live (I liked him quite a bit going in). Sota Yamamoto and Dima Aliev were on a whole different level when it comes to SS (especially Sota, he was really fast and smooth!)
.
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(I haven't seen him live this season, but I'm looking forward to WC. So far I'm not seeing many changes from fancams, but it's still not quite the same.)

I saw him in Barcelona 2015 too, and I generally agree with what you (and others) have said.

I wouldn't let one scrappy competition "define" a skater... but on the other hand, I have seen Nathan in person this season... three times in fact (Finlandia, TdF, GPF)...

...And subjectively (!), I think his speed is improved, and his performance/interpretation/choreography is better this season - I think his programs and choreography are well chosen to showcase everything he can do well. He skates with great commitment and fire, projects well and gets the audience behind him. I think his jumps are helping his SS score, because it surely does take extraordinary skill and technique to land all those quads. There is much to admire.

But, I think Performance and Choreography are a bit lacking in variety and contrast...
I don't see any "major" improvements in basic skating skills since last season...
Too much 2-footed skating...
Edges not bad, but also not as deep and strong as others who show effortless control, acceleration and glide...

I find his Transitions distinctly weak in all 4 of its criteria (Variety, Difficulty, Intricacy and Quality), I think his pleasing arm and leg movements are disguising a lack of variety, difficulty, vertical movements and balance-threatening upper body and head movements...

And I think he has some way to go to match the polish, refinement and finesse of other top skaters...

In short, while I wouldn't call his PCS "outrageous"... I do find it a bit... "surprising"...

andromache · Feb 27, 2017

Yuzuru and Javier have set the standard for "tech now, PCS later," IMO. It's worked very well for them, and shows that once you've mastered doing a few quads, you can really take the time to work on other stuff. Some posters here are acting like developing that stuff later is ridiculous and unrealistic, but the best guys in the world have proven that it's not. Some skaters start as jumping beans, others start as little baby artistes (Shoma, for example).

To me, there is no question that Nathan has developed a lot over the course of a single season, and that he still has a very long way to go to become a complete skaters like Yuzuru Hanyu. That said, Nathan has great skating skills for his age, and the more comfortable he gets with his jumps, the easier it will be for him to let those SS shine in competition, and to make them even better. His balletic movements in his SP are great, and the SP is really world-class in general. The LP needs more choreography and interpretative commitment.

To a certain extent, I think people are seeing what they want to see re: Nathan. They've labeled him as a jumping bean because he does a bunch of quads, and regardless of his development as a skater and performer, he will be seen as a jumping bean with overscored PCS.

FlattFan · Feb 27, 2017

Interspectator said:
Looking at the PCS criteria, and the scores given by the judges, and the performances by the skaters, I don't see any reason why Jason and Misha should be behind Nathan in PCS.

Easier to fulfill PCS criteria when you are doing much easier jumps. This is a case of PCS is a scale of TES.

Look at Satoko at last year World. She was doing a jump layout with 7 triples and 2 2As, but getting hosed on PCS for doing 2 2A-3T compare to a host of other girls. Her PCS should have been a lot higher compare to the other girls.

If Carolina is only doing double but with a ton of transitions, should she get perfect PCS? The answer is no, she was popping all of jumps in 2009, but performed until the last second, and they correctly dinged her PCS.

Altie · Feb 27, 2017

andromache said:
Yuzuru and Javier have set the standard for "tech now, PCS later," IMO. It's worked very well for them, and shows that once you've mastered doing a few quads, you can really take the time to work on other stuff. Some posters here are acting like developing that stuff later is ridiculous and unrealistic, but the best guys in the world have proven that it's not. Some skaters start as jumping beans, others start as little baby artistes (Shoma, for example).

To me, there is no question that Nathan has developed a lot over the course of a single season, and that he still has a very long way to go to become a complete skaters like Yuzuru Hanyu. That said, Nathan has great skating skills for his age, and the more comfortable he gets with his jumps, the easier it will be for him to let those SS shine in competition, and to make them even better. His balletic movements in his SP are great, and the SP is really world-class in general. The LP needs more choreography and interpretative commitment.

To a certain extent, I think people are seeing what they want to see re: Nathan. They've labeled him as a jumping bean because he does a bunch of quads, and regardless of his development as a skater and performer, he will be seen as a jumping bean with overscored PCS.

Well, Yuzuru sure has matured a lot over the years, especially in skating skills, but still, at 17 yo he was much more than a "simple" jumping bean. His skating was super fast, he had transitions, gorgeous spins, he performed with passion and charisma, and his jumps were already beautifully executed with difficult entries, especially his 3A and 4T, and he deserved every GOE score he got...

I'm pretty sad with what's happening with Nathan Scores, because honestly this is so unfair that I can't appreciate the skater as much as I should because of this :/. And I have nothing against jumping beans, I love Boyang Jin, and 5 quads and two 2A is a really impressive performance !...

Kelly · Feb 27, 2017

Mathman said:
Oh, thank you. My bad.

Yes, that was a badly judged event, in my humble opinion and in in that of most observers. Uno's marks were too high for such a performance, never mind the argument that "well, he is actually a better skater than that."

Edited to add: By the way, the reason that I say the judging was bad is not because of quads versus artistry or anything like that. It is because the wrong person won. Jin skated best and he should have won. The judging system is at fault if it comes out otherwise.

So should we open another Pandora's box although the Asian Winter Games is a much less significant event?

Li'Kitsu · Feb 27, 2017

andromache said:
Yuzuru and Javier have set the standard for "tech now, PCS later," IMO.

I wouldn't have thought in a million years I would ever hear that. How? Where? :roll9:
IMO, Yuzu is an obvious case for a skater trying to be as well-rounded as possible. Did Yuzu look all tech to you at WC 2012 in that LP? Not at all to me. One quad, but good skating skills, well constructed programs with lots of transitions and a good balance overall, lots of energy focused on performing. And afterwards he gradually upped his quad game while devoting lots of time working on stuff like his skating skills. I don't think it could have been more balanced between tech and PCS, IMO. His tech was more pronounced because he was constantly compared to Patrick, the PCS king, but on his own he was always well-balanced (especially if we take jump quality as in GOE into the category with PCS - where it would have to be in this discussion, given that Nathan's scores are getting criticized in GOE and PCS).
I think Javi is even a flat out ironic counter example to what you're trying to say. He had the big jumps but not lots of success. And then he went to Brian, which was the big game changer for him - they worked a lot on the PCS aspects of his skating, and only then did he find success. He had worked on his tech first, but he never was even close to getting as far as Nathan does right now for it. Meaning he needed to work on PCS. A need Nathans scores tell him he doesn't have. And besides, I'd think it wasn't so much a conscious decision of 'tech is more important' on Javis part as him simply put going for the best he could overall under the circumstances he had back then.

Yuii Murasaki · Feb 27, 2017

andromache said:
Yuzuru and Javier have set the standard for "tech now, PCS later," IMO. It's worked very well for them, and shows that once you've mastered doing a few quads, you can really take the time to work on other stuff. Some posters here are acting like developing that stuff later is ridiculous and unrealistic, but the best guys in the world have proven that it's not. Some skaters start as jumping beans, others start as little baby artistes (Shoma, for example).

To me, there is no question that Nathan has developed a lot over the course of a single season, and that he still has a very long way to go to become a complete skaters like Yuzuru Hanyu. That said, Nathan has great skating skills for his age, and the more comfortable he gets with his jumps, the easier it will be for him to let those SS shine in competition, and to make them even better. His balletic movements in his SP are great, and the SP is really world-class in general. The LP needs more choreography and interpretative commitment.

To a certain extent, I think people are seeing what they want to see re: Nathan. They've labeled him as a jumping bean because he does a bunch of quads, and regardless of his development as a skater and performer, he will be seen as a jumping bean with overscored PCS.

I have no idea where you got this information from.

As far as I know, when Javi and Yuzu first came to Brian they, particularly Yuzu, spent most of their time working on "Skating Skills".
Because they know there is no way they will be able to compete against Patrick, the PCS King, with the tech contents only. They need both TES and PCS to compete if they want to win.

Looking at Nathan's PCS now, he received them higher and higher at each competition but he hasn't done anything much because his focus for now is doing quad jumps only.
So why he needs to improve his PCS since he is already rewarded? Why he has to take risks and loses his jumping consistency?

I am so sad with the way PCS judging system is heading now. To win or to be a champion, you just do quad jumps. Working on PCS is no longer needed.

Lys · Feb 27, 2017

Mrs. P said:
I'd be interested in hearing people's views on Nathan's performance ability as of late (Lys?). I last saw him in 2014 when he won junior men. I thought he had strong basic skating skills, but his performance and projection wasn't quite there for me. While he deserved to win with his technical content, his competitors left more of an impression on me, performance wise.

My impression is very much in line with Li'Kitsu.
My impression is he skates behind the music much more than over it. I get very little sense of him "owning" the music he is skating to, and this impression got even stronger at Marseille, where the difference in interpretation between SP and FP is very little.
He doesn't have a big projection either, compared to the other skaters there (back to Barcelona, I'd say he had a bigger projection than Zhou or Savodsky, but he was far behind than the other three: Samohin, Aliev and Yamamoto).
Boyang Jin is a far less refined skater than him (lines and edges both), but he feels a much more natural performer and also interpreter than him to me, ie. It may be more messy, less controlled, but you can feel him skating to those pieces and finding his keys through them.

Months later, I'd say what left the biggest impression on me about his skating are his jumps, while the others left to me a more rounded memory about many more aspects of their skating.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Feb 27, 2017

Tavi... said:
I disagree. There's more at stake with scoring than whether the system produced the "correct" winner. PCS and GOE affect relative scores, which affect (1) which skaters qualify for competitions such as the GPF; (2) world ranking, which determines who gets GP assignments; (3) perception; and (4) funding by the skater's fed (which - at least in the US - depends on placement at specified competitions). And when results are close, padding someone's PCS and GOE (or lowballing them) can result in wrong placements for skaters who don't win, even if the "right" person won.

As to whether the "results aren't too far off the mark," the OP made a compelling case based on his/her personal observations as to why the results were quite far off the mark for Nathan, who beat Hanyu by less than 4 points. Assuming that Hanyu was scored correctly (a big assumption, and one that may or may not be true), he could easily have won if Nathan had received lower PCS and had not received a far too generous 2.43 points in GOE on his first combination.

The problem is that Nathan was awarded high PCS and GOE when he didn't meet the stated criteria, and that other skaters who did meet the criteria for higher PCS and GOE were lowballed. Awarding 9+ for a component means the skater has done an "outstanding" job of meeting the specified criteria; awarding 8+ means the skater has done a "very good" job at meeting the criteria. Nathan's PCS was 88.86, which means that the judges essentially considered him outstanding in all PCS categories.

But I question why a skater whose program is "primarily a jump fest," merits 8.93 in choreography when Jason, for example, got an 8.61, and why a skater who only "had transitions leading into his jumps" merits an 8.75 versus Jason's 8.43. You say Nathan "performed the heck out of that program like he wanted to win," and that he "skated a pretty exhilarating performance but wasn't top tier." That might be enough to merit his 8.89 in performance, but he didn't showcase outstanding skating skills (he got 9.00) or musical interpretation (8.86).

I just don't think the excitement of seeing a determined competitor landing a lot of quads is sufficient for the PCS Nathan was awarded. When judges do this, the whole concept of PCS and the marks themselves become meaningless.

Regarding PCS not being high enough for a skater to win, or another skater's PCS being too high, why are people ALWAYS bring it up to protest their favourite skater not winning (or, in many cases, when the skater they dislike ends up taking the win) when they don't really consider the grave errors that said non-winning skater made to deny themselves the win. People seem to forget that Hanyu doubled two quads and left out a triple. In 2012 people want Takahashi to win, but forget that his SP << or having only 1 quad in the FS. So with these technical issues, they complain that the PCS didn't "save" their skater sufficiently enough.

Also, by primarily a jump-fest I was referring to the fact that the skate was a technical masterpiece which obviously overshadowed any artistic capability. And the funny thing is, if Nathan had done all triples, people would probably be okay with the PCS but they seem to think that multiple high-level quads = artistically-deficient skate (unless you're Hanyu/Fernandez/Chan). And let's be honest -- people would have also been okay with Nathan's PCS, so long as it was sufficiently low enough + Hanyu's was sufficiently high enough for Hanyu to win. To me, Nathan was choreographically weak, but solid it on performance and had the skating skills. Hanyu was interpretation-wise weaker than his usual (ironically, like Nathan, the focus on technical elements meant the overall performance accordingly suffered for it), although the skating skills/transitions were solid. 94 was perfectly suitable PCS for that, even a bit generous given how measured his performance was. He still won the FS and got the highest PCS of the competition in both segments (even got 47 PCS in the SP with a major error).

But Nathan landed 7 quads - including 2 lutzes and 2 flips which Hanyu didn't even attempt, to Hanyu's 5. He made no major errors, and his technical output massively exceeded Hanyu's output (and everyone else's to an even greater degree, for that matter). He's the US champion, so his PCS is bound to be higher... but at the same token, he was still sub-90... Shoma last year had higher PCS at 4CC than Chen this year and I don't think Shoma was particularly better than where Nathan is now.

Lys · Feb 27, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Also, by a jump-fest I was referring to the fact that the skate was a technical masterpiece.

When a performance with two triple axels that should have got -2 GOE at best is defined a technical masterpiece... RIP, Triple Axel.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Feb 27, 2017

Lys said:
When a performance with two triple axels that should have got -2 GOE at best is defined a technical masterpiece... RIP, Triple Axel.

He did a 4Z+3T combo (first element ever to score over 20 points), 4F, and 4S and almost 2 clean 4Ts... almost nearly landed 5 clean quads... level 4's on everything... 115 points TES. But hey, yeah, that's TOTALLY negated by a 3A with a turnout and a 3A with a stepout. :rolleye:

I suppose you also think Hanyu's FS isn't technically noteworthy either, in spite of 4 quads, thanks to that double salchow and a lack of a 4F or 4Z? :sarcasm:

Lys · Feb 27, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
He did a 4Z+3T combo (first element ever to score over 20 points), 4F, and 4S and almost 2 clean 4Ts... almost nearly landed 5 clean quads... level 4's on everything... 115 points TES. But hey, yeah, that's TOTALLY negated by a 3A with a turnout and a 3A with a stepout.

I suppose you also think Hanyu's FS isn't technically noteworthy either, in spite of 4 quads, thanks to that double salchow and a lack of a 4F or 4Z? :sarcasm:

No, I'm thinking that there is a difference between something being a great feat and noteworthy (like Nathan's FP was) and something being a masterpiece.
Probably I'm just more strict than you with my definition, tho.

It's not a problem, I'm way more strict than judges with GOE and PCS too :laugh:

Mrs. P · Feb 27, 2017

Lys said:
Boyang Jin is a far less refined skater than him (lines and edges both), but he feels a much more natural performer and also interpreter than him to me, ie. It may be more messy, less controlled, but you can feel him skating to those pieces and finding his keys through them.

Boyang Jin is someone that looks far better in person than in video. He left a much greater impression than I expected when I saw him both times last season (Worlds and Team Challenge Cup). His jumps are huge in person. I agree he puts a lot of feeling in his skating and performances.

andromache · Feb 27, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
But Nathan landed 7 quads - including 2 lutzes and 2 flips which Hanyu didn't even attempt, to Hanyu's 5. He made no major errors, and his technical output massively exceeded Hanyu's output (and everyone else's to an even greater degree, for that matter). He's the US champion, so his PCS is bound to be higher... but at the same token, he was still sub-90... Shoma last year had higher PCS at 4CC than Chen this year and I don't think Shoma was particularly better than where Nathan is now.

But Shoma has been labeled as an artist whereas Nathan hasn't. FWIW, it's clear that Shoma's focus on the jumps has lowered the quality of his performances in comparison to last year, but his ability to do the insane number of and types of quads means he gets a PCS boost, too.

Nathan has performed better and better with each competition this season, but everyone wants to pretend that he isn't working on his PCS because it suits their narrative :rolleye:

.

In a perfect world, PCS would've ranked the men at 4CCs in the following order:

Patrick>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hanyu>>Jason>>>>>>>>>>>>Shoma>>>>>>Nathan>>>>>Boyang

Only a world in which tech determines PCS to some extent (as it does now) can Hanyu receives higher scores in SS than Patrick Chan. And yet we've all accepted that that is the case. But Nathan gets PCS boost and it's the end of the world. :drama:

gsyzf · Feb 27, 2017

People have their own preferences & values. Those preferences & values will show up in their perception of certain performances, whether they watch a performance on TV or live. If you don't like a person's performance on TV,e.g. he doesn't project or you don't feel connected to his performance, you won't like him when you watch him live either. If you like someone on TV despite his flaws, you also like him live too. It's not like those flaws just disappear when you watch someone live. I see many people use their live experience as a justification to talk negatively about someone, but everyone's live experience is still a reflection of his/her preference & value and those preferences & values don't change just because you attend a live performance. I don't see much merit of using live experience to justify scores because you are still just mainly talking about your preference and value.

How many people actually hate someone's performance on TV and suddenly love that same person when they watch him live?

Li'Kitsu · Feb 27, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
In 2012 people want Takahashi to win, but forget that his SP << or having only 1 quad in the FS. So with these technical issues, they complain that the PCS didn't "save" their skater sufficiently enough.

The irony, when it was Patrick that was saved by PCS back then (Dai having a higher BV overall).

And this isn't a statement about who should have won WC 2012. It's a statement about your logic.

And the funny thing is, if Nathan had done all triples, people would probably be okay with the PCS but they seem to think that multiple high-level quads = artistically-deficient skate (unless you're Hanyu/Fernandez/Chan).

As long as the rest stays the same - heck no? Why on earth would that be the case?

And let's be honest -- people would have also been okay with Nathan's PCS, so long as it was sufficiently low enough + Hanyu's was sufficiently high enough for Hanyu to win.

Again, no? And Nathans PCS/GOE have been questioned before, when Yuzu wasn't involved?

You need to stop making these guessing scenarios. You're the only person I know who can basically argue with themselves and still be wrong. It's kind of amazing.

Mrs. P · Feb 27, 2017

gsyzf said:
How many people actually hate someone's performance on TV and suddenly love that same person when they watch him live?

As I noted Boyang Jin impressed me a lot more live then on video. I didn't "hate" his skating per se, but I was definitely sort of meh on him.

A better example for me, though not men, is Bobrova/Soloviev. I did not care for them AT ALL and probably was veering on anti-fan but after seeing them in Skate America in 2012, I became an instant fan.

Pandora’s Box?2017 4cc men's figure skating

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