Pandora’s Box?2017 4cc men's figure skating

Jammers said:

When you talk about slow that is Nam's skating. Nathan's speed has noticeably increased in the last couple years as he got bigger and more powerful. He's not speedy but i wouldn't call him slow and at his age he can make big improvements in a matter of months.

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Nathan was slow in Barcelona 2015 and he was slow in Marseille 2016. I wonder how many have actually watched him live over multiple seasons, tbh.
He can make big improvements, I don't see any reason to judge him over potential improvements that maybe we'll never see, tho.
I guess it's the same about his GOEs judging, tho. Potentially he has the skills to hit them all, so let's give him +2 and +3 when he hits maybe half a bullet.

some confusion

shinekitty said:

I was lucky to watch the ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships in Gangeung. The competition was wonderful but I have some concerns regarding the PCS score of the Men’s Free Skate.

According to the ISU guidelines, PCS is judged by: ss (skating skills) / tr (transitions) / pe (performance/execution) / ch (choreography) / in (interpretation).

But Nathan Chen’s PCS is clearly overscored in comparison to the marks of other skaters.

His SS: skating speed is slow, unsmooth, very immature. But he receives an average of 9?

His TR: transition is simple and even without transition during many sections of the program. But he got an average of 8.7?

His PE: Can I say he was expressionless? And where is the 8.9 coming from?

His CH: very vague, no clear subject and poor in details. And he got an average of 8.9

His IN: the body movement is very stiff and out of sync with music yet the mark he got is an average of 8.9!

But Nathan was awarded with 88.86 PCS, while the scores for Yuzuru Hanyu, Patrick Chan, Jason Brown, Misha Ge were 94.34, 92.58, 85.72 and 76, respectively. His score is inflated considering the performance and scores from the other skaters at the competition.

I know Nathan Chen is only 17 but skaters should be judged by their skills and performance not by experience or age. In my opinion, he is a jumper not a skater and his awful skating should not be rewarded with those ridiculous marks. If the judges keep throwing huge scores to these kind of skates, it will cause unfairness and unfortunate damage to this sport. After all, we paid the very expensive tickets to attend the events to watch Figure Skating NOT Figure JUMPING!

I urge the ISU can take action into this matter and ensure the Evaluation Criteria of PCS is adhered to the guideline and not based on the number of Quadruple jumps.

Freya&Kitty

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I am a yuzuru's fan,i think he makes great effort to the detail of.his performance but some of the referees gave him an unfair score.I don't konw why they did like these.yuzu has done his best but didn't get a satisfied and fair score.I think the ISU should give an explaination!!!

Looking at the PCS criteria, and the scores given by the judges, and the performances by the skaters, I don't see any reason why Jason and Misha should be behind Nathan in PCS.

Figure skating scoring elements: TR, CO, SS, IN, PE, jump and goe, which is also the way it reflects the aesthetic, We should not substantially weaken the other elements in exchange for more quads, it will destroy the ornamental of the figure skating. His LP will be less entertaining, as Mr. Chen says he has more quads to add to it. If judges continue to support his approach, men's figure skating will become more and more boring.

In addition,compared to other people, Mr. Chen's jumping strength and the way of jumping hurt his body more, I do not think he will continue figure skating after the Pingchang Olympics.He will retire,like Miss Lipninski.
What will be the direction of men's figure skating by then?

Interspectator said:

Looking at the PCS criteria, and the scores given by the judges, and the performances by the skaters, I don't see any reason why Jason and Misha should be behind Nathan in PCS.

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*This*.

The main issue, although I can see that 90 % of the posters here don't agree or don't care, is *not* that Yuzu lost. It's that PCS is not being applied accurately to all the skaters. If you make it all about "Yuzu wuzrobbed", it's missing a much bigger point.

And I don't expect that to derail the tone of this thread one little bit

I would say Boyang was robbed.
There is no reason for him to get PCs that lower than Nathan.

Lys said:

Nathan was slow in Barcelona 2015 and he was slow in Marseille 2016. I wonder how many have actually watched him live over multiple seasons, tbh.

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I've seen him live in 2010, 2014, and this year at the 2017 Nationals. He has always been plenty fast relative to the field at his age level. I'm sure Yuzuru is faster. He was as fast as I have seen among the men's field--during his practices prior to SC last year. But Nathan is competitive. Get used to it, guys. He's not the favorite . . . yet. But the field will have to deliver. They cannot pop, splat, or headcase their way past him.

Ice Dance said:

(Nathan's) not the favorite . . . yet. But the field will have to deliver. They cannot pop, splat, or headcase their way past him.

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I think this is important (if inelegantly put ). We can complain about inaccurate scoring as much as we want. The fact of the matter is that if the others do not skate their best, the judges will find a way to make sure that a clean 5-quad program will win.

I'm not saying that this is good. I'm not saying that this is bad. I'm just saying...

Mathman said:

I think this is important (if inelegantly put ). We can complain about inaccurate scoring as much as we want. The fact of the matter is that if the others do not skate their best, the judges will find a way to make sure that a clean 5-quad program will win.

I'm not saying that this is good. I'm not saying that this is bad. I'm just saying...

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If it were true across the board then it would be fair, but we just had a competition where there were two falls and a missed combo and a win. So....

Jaana said:

I think Chen deserved to win the competition, because of Hanyu´s sp. As it was Hanyu deserved to win the freeskated, which he did. In my opinion the judges got the right podium and in the right order, too. That is what matters in competitions most, in my opinion.

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Thank you! I totally agree with what you said and just don't understand this constant complaining and bickering over scores. This is figure skating. This is how the scoring goes. If you don't like it find another sport. Most times the judges in their round about way get the placements right. Can't people just sit back and enjoy it?

Interspectator said:

If it were true across the board then it would be fair, but we just had a competition where there were two falls and a missed combo and a win. So....

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We did? Someone fell twice and missed a combo and beat another skater who was clean with five quads?

Mathman said:

We did? Someone fell twice and missed a combo and beat another skater who was clean with five quads?

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Yeah...We did? Where? BTW, did any of you see the "Mixup" at the Oscars.....Sad.

Jaana said:

I think Chen deserved to win the competition, because of Hanyu´s sp. As it was Hanyu deserved to win the freeskated, which he did. In my opinion the judges got the right podium and in the right order, too. That is what matters in competitions most, in my opinion.

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Ice Dance said:

I've seen him live in 2010, 2014, and this year at the 2017 Nationals. He has always been plenty fast relative to the field at his age level. I'm sure Yuzuru is faster. He was as fast as I have seen among the men's field--during his practices prior to SC last year. But Nathan is competitive. Get used to it, guys. He's not the favorite . . . yet. But the field will have to deliver. They cannot pop, splat, or headcase their way past him.

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No wonder the OP and many complain because Nathan got so over-scored on PCS in the free skate that Yuzu could not make up his pop in the short program to win 4CC.:gaah:

Mathman said:

We did? Someone fell twice and missed a combo and beat another skater who was clean with five quads?

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So, 5 quads is the magic number where your PCS will rise no matter what as long as you don't fall? (It wasn't really clean, the protocols were sprinkled with - signs.)

Sorry, I was unclear in my previous post. If landing quads will automatically get you high PCS then Boyang should be getting the benefit as well. If we are going 'by the rule book' then Boyang is getting fair PCS scores. But it needs to be the same for all the skaters.

The results of 4CC is ok with me. There are, as others have posted, some questions as to how PCS points are given. I can see the argument for Yuzu getting the gold, and also Nathan. I don't think Yuzu was robbed of the gold medal, but if the judges had assigned PCS 'by the book' then Yuzu would have won and I would also not have thought that Nathan was robbed either.

Ice Dance said:

I've seen him live in 2010, 2014, and this year at the 2017 Nationals. He has always been plenty fast relative to the field at his age level. I'm sure Yuzuru is faster. He was as fast as I have seen among the men's field--during his practices prior to SC last year. But Nathan is competitive. Get used to it, guys. He's not the favorite . . . yet. But the field will have to deliver. They cannot pop, splat, or headcase their way past him.

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I'm not comparing him to Yuzu alone.
In 2015, I saw him and could directly compare him to Dima or Yamamoto, ie. The difference was HUGE. In speed but not only in that. In precision, flow, edge work.
And this year the difference with other senior skaters was even bigger and he really didn't get any better from last year (I would say on some sides he got worse, or at least he was less committed to them, which is a fair choice considering his tech content).

That said, no-one is saying he is not competitive. My issue is when he (or others) is rewarded for things HE DOESN'T DO.
PCS and GOE both.

I'd be interested in hearing people's views on Nathan's performance ability as of late (Lys?). I last saw him in 2014 when he won junior men. I thought he had strong basic skating skills, but his performance and projection wasn't quite there for me. While he deserved to win with his technical content, his competitors left more of an impression on me, performance wise.

I look forward to seeing him in 2018 Nationals and seeing his growth in this area.

Jammers said:

When you talk about slow that is Nam's skating. Nathan's speed has noticeably increased in the last couple years as he got bigger and more powerful. He's not speedy but i wouldn't call him slow and at his age he can make big improvements in a matter of months.

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Let's see the big improvements in edge quality, and efficiency and the power and speed that goes with it.....and then score the SS accordingly...'reputation judging' is bad enough, 'potential' judging is cringe-worthy...

Actually, I am increasingly concerned that a number of excellent elite jump tech coaches are deluding themselves [and their skaters and the parents that fund them] into believing that it's strategic and crucial to get the bib BV jumps mastered early in the teens, and then get 'artistry' ....including SS!!!....somewhere down the line.

We've been having a bit of a discussion on the Canadian thread about this, and there is a fair contingent of us that are concerned to see a number of skaters with great potential get stuck on being jump leaders,....but the SS and other program components never really arrive.... the 'someday' for solidly rounded component skills never arrives..

If it were so easy to 'make it up in a matter of months', Nam, Kevin Reynolds and others would have smashingly good SS by now. But they don't, and they have reportedly been catching up on those since they were Nathan's age....

Now Nathan's story is interesting....He's been taking ballet longer than skating, even if work remains to integrate it into his skating. It gives him extension and movement that may help him bridge to better SS more quickly than others who haven't made the long term dance investment.

BUT, despite an intervention by someone [mum and dad??] that said that it was past time to make something of that long term investment in program components by bringing Marina into the coaching mix, Nathans still [again?] talking in interviews like the artistry and skating skills is something he can just get to later...

In my view, it's time for the judging to give that kind of thinking a harsh reality check....otherwise we are going to face a quadrennial of empty men's splatfests, and up and coming junior and novice men who don't really believe that they need to actually be great at skating [as opposed to solely jumping] to be a champion.
,

TGee said:

Actually, I am increasingly concerned that a number of excellent elite jump tech coaches are deluding themselves [and their skaters and the parents that fund them] into believing that it's strategic and crucial to get the bib BV jumps mastered early in the teens, and then get 'artistry' ....including SS!!!....somewhere down the line.

We've been having a bit of a discussion on the Canadian thread about this, and there is a fair contingent of us that are concerned to see a number of skaters with great potential get stuck on being jump leaders,....but the SS and other program components never really arrive.... the 'someday' for solidly rounded component skills never arrives..

If it were so easy to 'make it up in a matter of months', Nam, Kevin Reynolds and others would have smashingly good SS by now. But they don't, and they have reportedly been catching up on those since they were Nathan's age....

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This, very much. The way people are just saying now "oh, he can get all that PCS stuff later/that will come with time" leaves me really irritated. It's another sign of a mentality where people dismiss everything but the quads. Everything else is apparently easy or just framework - but it's not. Skating with deep edges is really difficult, skating with more speed is more difficult (especially going into your jumps with more speed), putting more choreographic content outside of the technical elements into your programs makes it more difficult (it costs energy to execute, you have to focus on all those details taking away focus from the jumps)... which is why it needs to be properly rewarded in PCS (and GOE). Especially if people think Nathan has so much potential to be a complete skater the judges over-rewarding him in GOE and PCS already is a shame. Because why would he improve? You can say 'but he will' all you want to, for now they are talking about a 'new, big thing' for WC again, aren't they? Looks to me like the course is set: let's throw in all the quads we can. That's the main goal. And I doubt that will give him time to work on the other aspects all that much. And neither would they risk his jump consistency for it I guess.

In that sense: I second Lys. I saw Nathan live in Barcelona 2015, and I was quite disappointed with his skating live (I liked him quite a bit going in). Sota Yamamoto and Dima Aliev were on a whole different level when it comes to SS (especially Sota, he was really fast and smooth!). It's not that I would call Nathan slow, but he was definitely not 'plenty fast' either, he was... there. His edges are good, but he doesn't do much with them, and his knees are IMO too stiff losing him flow and power. SS wise, it was IMO Sota > Aliev >> Chen > Samohin. Performance-wise, I'd say the same. Nathan was okay. He didn't project all that well but skating relatively 'small' and inwards. Yes, his posture is nice, and he has good musical timing, but he doesn't do much with those qualities. He was definitely out-performed by Dima and Dany. To the point were I would have had him last in PCS out of all 4 (if it hadn't been for Danys 5 falls).
Bottom line: I think Nathan was on the lucky end of "my TES determines my PCS" already then. Which is why I even more think it won't change and he won't magically have great SS & programs next year.
(I haven't seen him live this season, but I'm looking forward to WC. So far I'm not seeing many changes from fancams, but it's still not quite the same.)


And to point that out again, I am not arguing that Yuzu wuzrobbed, I am fine with Nathan winning 4CC because of the higher BV. That is not the point at all. The point is the skaters being rewarded for what they actually put out and not for anything else and the direction the skating will go in - because the skaters will see what the judges reward and might very well orientate themselves to that because they want to win. And I at least really don't think Nathans skating at 4CC, especially the LP, should be the gold standard of figure skating at all.

Interspectator said:

So, 5 quads is the magic number where your PCS will rise no matter what as long as you don't fall? (It wasn't really clean, the protocols were sprinkled with - signs.)

Sorry, I was unclear in my previous post. If landing quads will automatically get you high PCS then Boyang should be getting the benefit as well. If we are going 'by the rule book' then Boyang is getting fair PCS scores. But it needs to be the same for all the skaters.

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I must be extra-dense this morning. What competition are you referring to? Yes, Patrick Chan fell twice in the free skate at Four Continents and beat Boyang Jin. So did Shoma Uno. But Jin fell twice, too.

As for Chen, he got some negative GOEs and had a Zayak deduction. That's why he lost to Yuzuru Hanyu in the free skate. Hanyu got 94.34 in PCSs for a good but not perfect skate and beat Nathan despite being slightly behind Nathan (by only two points) on the TES side. Chan and Uno also scored higher in PCSs than Nathan, as was appropriate.

I think that Jin will get higher PCSs if he does all his quads and skates cleanly. He got 77 in the LP with 2 falls. In the SP he did not fall but had a bad combo with -3 GOEs. He got an average of 8.0 in PCSs, which I think is about right for his performance. If he skates cleanly I think he will get 8.5s to Nathan's 8.75s. (With Hanyu and Chan getting 9.75.) I do not see what is so terrible about such scores.

Mathman said:

I must be extra-dense this morning. What competition are you referring to? Yes, Patrick Chan fell twice in the free skate at Four Continents and beat Boyang Jin. So did Shoma Uno. But Jin fell twice, too.

As for Chen, he got some negative GOEs and had a Zayak deduction. That's why he lost to Yuzuru Hanyu in the free skate. Hanyu got 94.34 in PCSs for a good but not perfect skate and beat Nathan despite being slightly behind Nathan (by only two points) on the TES side. Chan and Uno also scored higher in PCSs than Nathan, as was appropriate.

I think that Jin will get higher PCSs if he does all his quads and skates cleanly. He got 77 in the LP with 2 falls. In the SP he did not fall but had a bad combo with -3 GOEs. He got an average of 8.0 in PCSs, which I think is about right for his performance. If he skates cleanly I think he will get 8.5s to Nathan's 8.75s. (With Hanyu and Chan getting 9.75.) I do not see what is so terrible about such scores.

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I meant Asian winter games recently finished. It seems to me that different arguments are brought to the fore to justify the scores for these skaters. In the case of Chen winning with a strong though not perfect free skate, the excitement of the quads and competitive steadiness is used to justify his high PCS. All well and good.
But when Boyang delivers a strong though not perfect free skate and gets second to Shoma who fell twice and left out a combo, an argument is made that Shoma's better skating skills etc deserve higher PCS and gives him the win (putting aside the very suspect TES judging). This can also be a valid argument.
But Boyang, who is trying to improve his PCS, and steady his jumps is getting mixed signals. Should he abandon the choreography and transitions he's added to his new programs this year? It may help his PCS to grow even though there is nothing in the PCS criteria that says that is the case.