Evaluating USFS world team selection

karne · Mar 5, 2017

gravy said:
How dare he?!?!!

I forgot, this sort of thing is "cute" when it comes from certain skaters.

Nothing like taking responsibility for your own errors, which a skater who was actually robbed by the judges still did.

ice coverage · Mar 5, 2017

Mrs. P said:
I think karne might have been thinking about this:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BA3eh3xuuAK/?taken-by=govincentzhou&hl=en

Mrs. P said:
I'm not that bothered by it. He's not the first nor the last to question judging, if that was indeed the case.

Just as I find it odd to judge someone by six minutes in the K&C. I don't think we need to make broad judgments about Vincent based on this one statement on Instagram.

Thank you, Mrs. P :bow:

.

el henry · Mar 5, 2017

OK, I tried, I really did, it is Lent, I am supposed to resist temptation, but....

As someone who believes in the "perform lights out under pressure in one comp and make the team" rule, I am mystified by the assumption by almost everyone in this thread that Jason was "chosen" over a higher ranking skater.

At the time that the World Team was chosen, Vincent *was* *not* *eligible* for the World team. Let us say a dance team where one member was not a citizen (I use dance deliberately to avoid Mervissa) won Nats in an Oly year. Would the USFS be making a "decision" because they don't send that team to the Olys? They wouldn't be eligible. No decision was "made".

Is there an argument that USFS should have waited and given Vincent a chance to earn minimums? Sure. I don't agree with it, but it's an argument. But they didn't. Thus, at the time the team was chosen, they selected the two highest finishing eligible skaters. They went with who was best and eligible to go on that day. No other "decision" was made.

Now, do I know if that's why they *really* selected Jason? My psychic friends network kit is at the cleaners, so no, I don't know.

Do I agree with the selection, regardless of why it was made? Of course. And believe it or not I do not feel the need to repeat myself on that one. :biggrin:

But any inclusion of Jason on "got leapfrogged" list comes with a *mighty* big asterisk IMHO.

Now that I've broken Lent, time to eat some doughnuts :laugh:

brightphoton · Mar 5, 2017

el henry said:
OK, I tried, I really did, it is Lent, I am supposed to resist temptation, but....

As someone who believes in the "perform lights out under pressure in one comp and make the team" rule, I am mystified by the assumption by almost everyone in this thread that Jason was "chosen" over a higher ranking skater.

At the time that the World Team was chosen, Vincent *was* *not* *eligible* for the World team. Let us say a dance team where one member was not a citizen (I use dance deliberately to avoid Mervissa) won Nats in an Oly year. Would the USFS be making a "decision" because they don't send that team to the Olys? They wouldn't be eligible. No decision was "made".

Is there an argument that USFS should have waited and given Vincent a chance to earn minimums? Sure. I don't agree with it, but it's an argument. But they didn't. Thus, at the time the team was chosen, they selected the two highest finishing eligible skaters. They went with who was best and eligible to go on that day. No other "decision" was made.

Now, do I know if that's why they *really* selected Jason? My psychic friends network kit is at the cleaners, so no, I don't know. Do I agree with the selection, regardless of why it was made? Of course. And believe it or not I do not feel the need to repeat myself on that one.

But any inclusion of Jason on "got leapfrogged" list comes with a *mighty* big asterisk IMHO.

Now that I've broken Lent, time to eat some doughnuts

No one knows why Vincent was left off the team, but let's accept that your reasoning that he was ineligible for Worlds and therefore cannot be on the team.

Let's look at the alternate list for men World's
1. Vincent - 2nd place, whoa whoa whoa isn't this guy ineligible???
2. Grant - 4th place
3. Max - 9th place

The alternate list for ladies for World's
1. Mirai - 4th place
2. Gracie - 6th place
3. Caroline - 5th place

Junior World ladies
1. Amber - 8th seniors
2. Bradie - 9th seniors
Alternatives for junior worlds
1. Starr - 2nd juniors
2. Ashley - 3rd juniors
3. Meagan - 14th seniors

It's a mess

karne · Mar 5, 2017

brightphoton said:
No one knows why Vincent was left off the team, but let's accept that your reasoning that he was ineligible for Worlds and therefore cannot be on the team.

Let's look at the alternate list for men World's
1. Vincent - 2nd place, whoa whoa whoa isn't this guy ineligible???
2. Grant - 4th place
3. Max - 9th place

Oh yay, I was wondering when this would come up and you'd join the ranks of "look at Max getting heaps of favours and love from the USFS because he was made the third frigging alternate". :rolleye:

brightphoton · Mar 5, 2017

karne said:
Oh yay, I was wondering when this would come up and you'd join the ranks of "look at Max getting heaps of favours and love from the USFS because he was made the third frigging alternate".

The love and favors from the federation for a 9th place skater >> love and favors for 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th place skaters

karne · Mar 5, 2017

brightphoton said:
The love and favors from the federation for a 9th place skater >> love and favors for 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th place skaters

Oh for the love of...

You mean to say you would genuinely send Ross Miner, Timothy Dolensky, Alexander Johnson or Sean Rabbitt to Worlds over Max? With Olympic spots on the line?

No disrespect is intended to any of these very fine skaters, but...SERIOUSLY? Good god, use some common bloody sense!

brightphoton · Mar 5, 2017

karne said:
Oh for the love of...

You mean to say you would genuinely send Ross Miner, Timothy Dolensky, Alexander Johnson or Sean Rabbitt to Worlds over Max? With Olympic spots on the line?

No disrespect is intended to any of these very fine skaters, but...SERIOUSLY? Good god, use some common bloody sense!

Oh, whoops, I thought National results meant something, anything at all. Rookie mistake.

karne · Mar 5, 2017

brightphoton said:
Oh, whoops, I thought National results meant something, anything at all. Rookie mistake.

If Nationals results truly meant nothing then Max would have been much higher up the alternate list. He wasn't.

But you know what else should mean something? Results other than Nationals. Just as I believe someone shouldn't expect to have an ordinary season, pull out one good skate and expect the accolades to flow in, I also believe someone shouldn't have a solid, decent season, have one bad skate and get destroyed. Clearly you'd love to see Max and Jason sitting in that trash heap, but the facts are that Max had a very solid season - two Challenger bronzes and a respectable 5th and 4th at his GP events - until US Nationals, and none of the other four have results on board this season that would challenge those. (Actually, Max's season track record also beats out Grant - and you'll notice Grant is higher on the alternate list than he is.)

I can't believe we're even arguing about this. It was the third alternate. It's not like it's actually worth anything meaningful.

el henry · Mar 5, 2017

brightphoton said:
No one knows why Vincent was left off the team, but let's accept that your reasoning that he was ineligible for Worlds and therefore cannot be on the team.

Let's look at the alternate list for men World's
1. Vincent - 2nd place, whoa whoa whoa isn't this guy ineligible???
2. Grant - 4th place
3. Max - 9th place

The alternate list for ladies for World's
1. Mirai - 4th place
2. Gracie - 6th place
3. Caroline - 5th place

Junior World ladies
1. Amber - 8th seniors
2. Bradie - 9th seniors
Alternatives for junior worlds
1. Starr - 2nd juniors
2. Ashley - 3rd juniors
3. Meagan - 14th seniors

It's a mess

It takes all the intellect and passion I have to concentrate on the timeless and eternal battle of Jason v. Vincent :drama:

I have no clue about the history of the selection of alternates. And I really have no clue about the ladies, let alone junior ladies; shoot me now, I don't even know who "Meagan" is

I'm not breaking Lent over that one..... :biggrin:

brightphoton · Mar 5, 2017

karne said:
If Nationals results truly meant nothing then Max would have been much higher up the alternate list. He wasn't.

But you know what else should mean something? Results other than Nationals. Just as I believe someone shouldn't expect to have an ordinary season, pull out one good skate and expect the accolades to flow in, I also believe someone shouldn't have a solid, decent season, have one bad skate and get destroyed. Clearly you'd love to see Max and Jason sitting in that trash heap, but the facts are that Max had a very solid season - two Challenger bronzes and a respectable 5th and 4th at his GP events - until US Nationals, and none of the other four have results on board this season that would challenge those. (Actually, Max's season track record also beats out Grant - and you'll notice Grant is higher on the alternate list than he is.)

I can't believe we're even arguing about this. It was the third alternate. It's not like it's actually worth anything meaningful.

I want a sport that makes it clear and quantifiable what you need to do to be on the team. Traditionally it was being medalist Nationals. However, something like "GPF winner is guaranteed a spot" or "highest season's best person gets a spot" would work too.

What I don't want is this: "hmmmm skater A did well at Cup of China and Skate Canada, but poorly at Nationals, that is surely worth more than skater B who did poorly at a senior B and Nebelhorn Cup, but did well at Nationals. Or is it the other way around? Whoo dee dooo let's pick one we like better, either one is justifiable."

brightphoton · Mar 5, 2017

el henry said:
It takes all the intellect and passion I have to concentrate on the timeless and eternal battle of Jason v. Vincent

I have no clue about the history of the selection of alternates. And I really have no clue about the ladies, let alone junior ladies; shoot me now, I don't even know who "Meagan" is I'm not breaking Lent over that one.....

You probably don't know who Meagan is because she finished 14th at seniors. But she was still chosen for the alternate position over skaters who finished 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th at seniors, and a whole bunch of juniors.

karne · Mar 5, 2017

brightphoton said:
I want a sport that makes it clear and quantifiable what you need to do to be on the team. Traditionally it was being medalist Nationals. However, something like "GPF winner is guaranteed a spot" or "highest season's best person gets a spot" would work too.

We already have that sport. USFS is just making it abundantly clear that they are taking the whole season into account rather than just Nationals. It's clear and quantifiable that you can expect that if you have a good season and good results, a slightly off-colour skate at US Nationals will not be unduly punished.

brightphoton said:
What I don't want is this: "hmmmm skater A did well at Cup of China and Skate Canada, but poorly at Nationals, that is surely worth more than skater B who did poorly at a senior B and Nebelhorn Cup, but did well at Nationals. Or is it the other way around? Whoo dee dooo let's pick one we like better, either one is justifiable."

You know, if you're going to draw false equivalencies like this, pretending you actually know what you're talking about is a great idea. The Nebelhorn Trophy (not Cup) IS a Senior B international. And Senior B internationals have always been ranked lower than Grand Prix events. They're even worth less ranking points for the ISU world rankings/standings.

And yes, the skater with the better GP results but a "whoops!" moment at Nationals should be considered before an obviously out-of-form skater who had a "whoo!" moment at Nationals.

Max's Senior Nationals results are 8, 1, 3, 4, 2, 9. It is obvious that the 9 is an outlier and an out-of-character result for him. A smart person looks at the whole picture, rather than just a blinded, narrow-minded look at one result that may or may not be an accurate snapshot of the season.

brightphoton · Mar 5, 2017

I don't want the selection of teams to be smart. I want them to be fair

And clear and quantifiable

karne · Mar 5, 2017

brightphoton said:
I don't want the selection of teams to be smart. I want them to be fair

I don't even have the words to respond to this. So you'd be perfectly happy with the US men having two spots next year as long as the team was, in your mind, fair?

VIETgrlTerifa · Mar 5, 2017

I just want to say that being put in an alternates list does guarantee you team envelope funding. Many skaters would love any extra financial help that they can get.

FlattFan · Mar 5, 2017

karne said:
I don't even have the words to respond to this. So you'd be perfectly happy with the US men having two spots next year as long as the team was, in your mind, fair?

Sending Max doesn't guarantee three spots next year. He's about the same risk-wise as Jason and Vincent.
Vincent is up and coming, and placed 2nd, so it makes sense to send Vincent over both.

brightphoton · Mar 5, 2017

karne said:
I don't even have the words to respond to this. So you'd be perfectly happy with the US men having two spots next year as long as the team was, in your mind, fair?

Yes, this is exactly my point. This sport now prioritizes "spots" more a culture in which athletes know exactly what they have to do to succeed. But I think the second should be the priority, not the first.

Yes, picking by ranking would most not be smart, in that the US would not be as competitive in international competitions. But I highly dislike the mentality and culture that comes with the selection by committee. Skaters are chosen for teams, and no one knows why anyone is chosen over anyone else, it's done in backroom deals. This can create lots of opportunity for misbehavior.

TontoK · Mar 6, 2017

Mathman said:
It seems that every year the USFSA jiggles the rules just a little to give the selection committee a tiny bit more wiggle room than the year before. My point is to raise a red flag about "the thin edge of the wedge."

I think it's fair to say that I'm a little more outspoken (being kind to myself here... other adjectives also fit) than Mathman, so I see this sort of feeling from him as being significant.

USFSA has been accused in the past of being loose with the scoring, particularly with generous technical callers, to effect the results of the national championship. I do not think these are baseless complaints.

If now, they're also tinkering with the rules for selection, I believe we're inching towards a process none of us would want.

Mrs. P · Mar 6, 2017

I remember it wasn't too long ago that people here were complaining that USFS was TOO rigid in using nationals results for team selection.

There's really no satisfying everyone, clearly. :eek:

hwell:

ETA: Here.

It's interesting because USFS went the complete opposite direction to what they did here. The silver medalist was a relatively fresh-out-of-juniors internationally Richard Dornbush (who just won JGPF), who like Vincent was in his second nationals as a senior. He and Ross Miner -- who had up until nationals did not have the best season -- were chosen over Jeremy (4th) and Adam (5th), who had better GP seasons.

Key difference was there were 3 spots instead of 2.

(And for the record, I was on the use national results side then....and for the most part still now.)

Evaluating USFS world team selection

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

brightphoton

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

brightphoton

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

brightphoton

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

brightphoton

brightphoton

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

brightphoton

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

VIETgrlTerifa

FlattFan

Match Penalty

brightphoton

TontoK

Hot Tonto

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

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