Chan: Quad Salchow for Oly SP?

4everchan · Apr 2, 2017

chuckm said:
Chan is a great skater --- at stroking and edging. Jumping, however, is not his forte, at least not the level of jumping skill needed in the current environment.

you know, other elite skaters admire Patrick's gorgeous 4s and 4t. Kurt has praised the quality of Chan's jumps calling them big, powerful, perfectly well aligned in the air, with nice running edge and flow. He called them big and textbook jumps that have a big presence in the rink.

Of course, if you only look at him when he misses, you get an opinion based on a limited sample.

Violet Bliss · Apr 2, 2017

chuckm said:
Chan is a great skater --- at stroking and edging. Jumping, however, is not his forte, at least not the level of jumping skill needed in the current environment.

I didn't want to bother but what the heck, this is too funny!

How did someone with poor jumping skills win all those major medals, including 3 Worlds titles? Currently, how did he score close to 300 points at Worlds last week with poor jumping skills, even with lower BV? Great stroking and edging alone never get someone a major medal, let alone Worlds and Olympic medals. His GOE and TES speak loudly about his jumping skills.

Maybe you are not serious?

4everchan · Apr 2, 2017

actually, Kurt said that Patrick' s great skating skills allow him to have these gorgeous flawless jumps

Mathman · Apr 2, 2017

Violet Bliss said:
If he were to do a 4 quad LP, it would be a lesser jump that would be replaced by the additional quad. After all, the point would be to increase BV, not because he needs to cut out a bad jump.

He would have to take out the triple Axel combo so as not to Zayak, right?

Otherwise, I am very much in sympathy. When Patrick started working on his quad toe, I said, "Nooooo! Forget the stupid quad, let's see your gorgeous triple Axel." But once he got it, his quad toe + triple toe was the best in the game.

4everchan · Apr 2, 2017

Mathman said:
He would have to take out the triple Axel combo so as not to Zayak, right?

Otherwise, I am very much in sympathy. When Patrick started working on his quad toe, I said, "Nooooo! Forget the stupid quad, let's see your gorgeous triple Axel." But once he got it, his quad toe + triple toe was the best in the game.

yup... as he can only repeat 2 jumps...

so he would need to ditch one of the 3A.

and now, you know, some people are starting to say that his 4S is the best in the business.... but you know... some opinions are worth more than others

Mathman · Apr 2, 2017

Violet Bliss said:
Actually Patrick has always said Triple Axel is his favorite jump when asked...

Not the triple Lutz? That's his best jump, IMHO.

4everchan · Apr 2, 2017

Mathman said:
Not the triple Lutz? That's his best jump, IMHO.

funny... i regard his 3F as his best jump..

then, when he went with the 4t... well... i think that his 4t-3t is the best by far...

now i am starting to LOVE his 4S and I always disliked his 3S.... that was for me his weakest jump.... and I was glad it was no longer done since he does the quad LOL... it's strange too how a triple can be not so nice, but then, the same skater does a wicked quad out of it????

ETA I should mention though that I love his 3S in the Chopin last year, dead on the musical highlight... a thing of pure beauty....

gourry · Apr 2, 2017

Maybe Patrick could try 2 4S and 1 4T in his FP if he feels comfortable enough with 4S? He would still do 3 quads and it will increase his base value even very slightly.

Violet Bliss · Apr 2, 2017

Mathman said:
He would have to take out the triple Axel combo so as not to Zayak, right?

Otherwise, I am very much in sympathy. When Patrick started working on his quad toe, I said, "Nooooo! Forget the stupid quad, let's see your gorgeous triple Axel." But once he got it, his quad toe + triple toe was the best in the game.

:thumbsup: Exactly.

Patrick is all about quality, in everything he does in a program. Thus his GOE make up for the lower BV than a few Men's currently. However, his PCS has not been adequately awarded these days for inexplicable reasons.

Doing more quads seem to be the way to earn PCS nowadays so perhaps another quad on the expense of program content is exactly how Patrick can boost his PCS too. He has to weigh jumps vs artistry for himself. If he wants badly enough to win and if he can train smartly enough, a 4 quad LP may be the way to go. He has many years left for artistry. However, it's his values, his body, and his choice.

The main thing is, with or without new medals, with or without more quads, Patrick and his fans are at peace and happy for the performances he brings us on ice.

4everchan · Apr 2, 2017

Violet Bliss said:
The main thing is, with or without new medals, with or without more quads, Patrick and his fans are at peace and happy for the performances he brings us on ice.

this! we missed him so much so seeing him with the amazing programs he keeps bringing every year is a blessing

also,it's not like he has done so badly.... sure... 5th place at worlds both years but he has also won 4CC in 2016, great showings at 3 out of 4 GPs... nationals have been good... plenty for us fans to enjoy.... and hopefully, plenty more as he remains healthy and fit for years to come.

Skater Boy · Apr 3, 2017

4everchan said:
why risk staying behind? having a simple 4t-3t, 4s, 3a layout, even if front loaded will make a difference.

Chan scored 102 with one quad. the difference between a 3lz and a 4s is about 4 point before GOE. Chan got +2.71 GOE on his 4S in the LP. So we can imagine he could gain 5-6 points with a clean skate.

Also, fall on a quad 10.5-4 = 6.5 - 1 point deduction is 5.5 while a 3lz is 6 points... there is very little risk as long as rotated. Chan hasn't popped his 4S a single time this year. He has landed 3 (GPF, Nationals, Worlds) and has fallen on it the other 3 times rather than popping it.... only once it was UR ( I am doing this from memory so forgive me if I forget something)

Others in the field : let me know... Aside from those like Reynolds who do 4 quads but only 1 triple axel... i don't see many trying 4 quads than the ones already there.... Daniel Samohin may... but yeah... I won't elaborate on his chances of landing 4 quads right now.

Your comment reads to me as an attempt to dismiss someone's potential. Patrick said to Marina after the LP : "there is still room to grow for next year" He is not maxed out. He will keep trying.

One example : After feeling comfortable with the new LP layout he added a new 3A combo we have never seen him attempt... he missed it, but it shows that even the 2-3 points that this combo would have given him compared to the 2t-2l he did prior to worlds was something he wanted to include to add couple more points.

Final question : why is anyone "risking" it then ? Everyone is adding quads.... and doing so represents a risk for everyone of these skaters. Yuzu had ONE fabulous program since last year's GPF.... ONE.... that's not going to stop him from attempting his content.

Everyone is risking it and the one who happens to hit on a particular day will be the winner. Why should Patrick not try? Unless you want him to have 0 chances of winning.

Chan also has already thought about steps into the 4S.

FYI : Javier Fernandez had a very large lead with a score of 109 skating a clean SP with exactly the same content as Chan would have. So why should he dismiss an extra 7 points?

We all know the importance of making the final flight and that is exactly how to get there.

So true. But I haven't seen the protocols. What I don't get is he missing his levels or GOE's because say next to Javier in particular in the short he should be picking up GOES and PCS. So even if Javi did the quad sal and Chan didn't how did Javi's lead grow to 7 pts. If anything it should be pretty close because Chan when on should be hitting full levels and getting more goes on jumps, spins and footwork plus pcs - in fact it might be en ough for him to beat Fernandez with two quads versus one - but we didn't see that at worlds. I think Chan is undermarked in pcs. People use to complain but now the system and judging is letting him and the world down. I agree if Hanyu skates like he did at worlds no one will beat him But I don't like the direction skating is going. It seems attempting diong quads also brings up our pcs ie Boyang, Uno and Chen. On the other hand, we have Jason Brown who is worse off than Chan as he struggles with one quad and his pcs while great are and should be behind Chan. The next issue is while at least Chan has some more content Brown doesn't so should he get lower pcs for an easier program so it is easier to focus on pcs?

4everchan · Apr 3, 2017

gourry said:
Maybe Patrick could try 2 4S and 1 4T in his FP if he feels comfortable enough with 4S? He would still do 3 quads and it will increase his base value even very slightly.

that would only add .2 points to the BV. It would also mean that Patrick would need to add a combo on the 4S... while he has a fabulous 4t-3t combo going on....

4everchan · Apr 3, 2017

Skater Boy said:
So true. But I haven't seen the protocols. What I don't get is he missing his levels or GOE's because say next to Javier in particular in the short he should be picking up GOES and PCS. So even if Javi did the quad sal and Chan didn't how did Javi's lead grow to 7 pts. If anything it should be pretty close because Chan when on should be hitting full levels and getting more goes on jumps, spins and footwork plus pcs - in fact it might be en ough for him to beat Fernandez with two quads versus one - but we didn't see that at worlds. I think Chan is undermarked in pcs. People use to complain but now the system and judging is letting him and the world down. I agree if Hanyu skates like he did at worlds no one will beat him But I don't like the direction skating is going. It seems attempting diong quads also brings up our pcs ie Boyang, Uno and Chen. On the other hand, we have Jason Brown who is worse off than Chan as he struggles with one quad and his pcs while great are and should be behind Chan. The next issue is while at least Chan has some more content Brown doesn't so should he get lower pcs for an easier program so it is easier to focus on pcs?

Javi got higher PCS... no idea why, but I admit that his Malaguena is cool... but flamenco uses a lot of upper body choreo, and I think that in figure skating, skating should be more rewarded than flamenco, even if it's super well-done and cool.
Patrick missed one level...

So 4S versus 3 Lz(10.5 + GOE vs 6 +GOE) + lower level on spin equals probably about 7 points there...

Boyang skated a brilliant LP and got 86 in PCS. That's huge.... I think he clearly deserved his bronze and I wouldn't place Javi or Chan on the podium considering how the top 3 skated but 86!!!! What's next??? Shoma had the same PCS as Javi and Patrick in the LP.... Well, Shoma is exceptionally good. So fine but where can Chan go??? He couldn't go much anywhere after Yuzu scored 97 in PCS which a flawless program. Nobody deserved to go higher than that really this time around... The issue is simply that judges are playing with a broken toy and don't know what to do with it anymore.

Ares · Apr 3, 2017

Yatagarasu said:
He can but he loses one of the 3As plus the rhythm of a 4 quad program is very different than that of a 3 quad program, he would have to get used to this from scratch; more stamina required, more risk with 4 quads, 2 in combo .... I am honestly not sure it's worth it.

I suppose he could practice it when he feels he has the energy, as a sort of emergency layout, in case he feels like he can do it if the moment comes. There's always that option.

I don't think it would be wise for Patrick either but 2 Quads in SP (Salchow as solo jump) is definitely the way to go for Chan.

lappo · Apr 3, 2017

Glad to hear that he is considering improvements in TES...he may currently not have the best shot at OGM, unless all the others with multiple quads bomb terribly (which is not impossible but I really hope it won't happen, Sochi long was bad enough...), but Canada is really in strong contention for the team event; currently they may be the more balanced team across all disciplines so they should think wisely about it.

Chan: Quad Salchow for Oly SP?

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