Posture in Program Components

elif · Apr 2, 2017

Ben Agosto made an interesting comment about Bobrova and Soliev's skating skills. He mentioned that their bent at the waist and forward shoulders are not considered proper skating posture and therefore should be reflected in their skating marks.

I agree with him. Bobrova and now Stepanova use bend waist for getting speed. Skating skills mark mostly about speed, power and bend knees. Their trick on getting speed like speed skaters should reflect on skating skills mark. Actually posture counts little bit on Performance/Execution mark but often ignored since it is very subjective. How good is good carriage? For example for 8 and 8.75 PE mark you need to:

very good carriage and placement of the body
very good control of the body along different planes

Bobrova and her limbs certainly didn't show any of it but they got 9.36. Same as Stepanova. Especially russians use ''speed skating posture'' to get away bend knees. Bobrova/Soloviev certainly faster than Shibs or other teams but how they got the speed is important. By knee work or by bend waist? ISU needs to stop skaters using ''speed skating posture'' and should award ''dance posture''.

Mathman · Apr 2, 2017

In singles, it seems like really good carriage is not particularly prized anymore. Dorothy Hamill and John Curry paid a lot of attention to posture st the 1976 Olympics, but since then this "bullet point" has fallen by the wayside. Skaters win competitions with good posture and bad.

It's tricky, though. As the OP says, speed is everything, so a certain amount of stroking like a speed skater is to be expected.

In ice dance, though, it seems like appropriate carriage ought to be regarded as a requirement. Not only overall, but as called for in each type of dance. Ballet calls for a different posture than hip-hop. Waltz is different from Cha-cha.

andromache · Apr 2, 2017

Mathman said:
In singles, it seems like really good carriage is not particularly prized anymore. Dorothy Hamill and John Curry paid a lot of attention to posture st the 1976 Olympics, but since then this "bullet point" has fallen by the wayside. Skaters win competitions with good posture and bad.

It's tricky, though. As the OP says, speed is everything, so a certain amount of stroking like a speed skater is to be expected.

Speed is everything, but surely it's better to reward speed generated with proper posture than speed generated with poor posture? If you need to stroke like a speed skater to gain speed, it isn't a great reflection on your skating skills.

Ares · Apr 2, 2017

Bobrova's bent posture & hunched back / shoulders thing was blatantly obvious to me either.

Blades of Passion · Apr 2, 2017

Mathman said:
In singles, it seems like really good carriage is not particularly prized anymore.

It truly isn't and it needs to be. The scoring system currently doesn't seem to understand that it's actually more difficult to maintain a good posture throughout than it is to do a "transition" and allow your body to slouch while doing it. When you don't have to support your upper body properly and constantly focus on projecting, you end up expending less energy. Thus allowing you to focus on doing some kind of turn on the ice.

It's like the difference between asking someone to stand up all day long, vs sitting down in a swivel chair and spinning around in the chair when they feel like. Which person will be more tired at the end of the day?

Ares said:
Bobrova's bent posture & hunched back / shoulders thing was blatantly obvious to me.

She has always been the weakest "top" lady in ice dancing. Not just in her posture and lack of extension and personality, but also in her basic skating. Watch some of her steps and turns, they are very suspect, often not sustaining the edge/position or even hitting it in the first place.

LoulouVi · Apr 2, 2017

As we've seen with the new CoP, any reward to proper technique will in time lead to amazing, unexpected, and safer improvements.

There's a moment in Hanyu's FS from this past worlds, where he slouches a bit much like he used to do all the time. It's all I can remember easily. The quad loop, I have to make an effort. (Poor me).

pETEs (Sasha Fan) · Apr 2, 2017

When it comes to posture, no one in the world comes close to John Curry's (Men's) and Sasha Cohen's (Ladies). Theirs was Perfection. Although, I don't think that either in 6.0 System or in IJS "posture" is especially evaluated.

Blades of Passion · Apr 2, 2017

Oh it was definitely a big deal with 6.0, because 6.0 was all about presenting yourself as a champion. Need good posture to do that. It's why people were so critical of Kimmie Meissner and part of why the sport started going downhill even more - because visually appealing skating was no longer the focus, thus audiences were getting turned off.

LoulouVi said:
There's a moment in Hanyu's FS from this past worlds, where he slouches a bit much like he used to do all the time. It's all I can remember easily. The quad loop, I have to make an effort. (Poor me).

I feel the same way. Despite being an incredible performance, there are still really annoying moments that simply don't look great or aren't musical. It should be the goal of every top competitor to have 0 such moments; if the scoring system and judges were doing what they should be doing then we would see more competitors making that the goal. If it means needing to cut a quad in order to have the stamina to deliver the program as best as possible, then so be it.

Interestingly, Hanyu's clean performance with Quad Loop at 2017 Worlds only scored 4 points more than his 2015 GPF performance without Quad Loop.

Meoima · Apr 2, 2017

Blades of Passion said:
If it means needing to cut a quad in order to have the stamina to deliver the program as best as possible, then so be it.

Oh well but he does not have a choice, he must add more quads or he would be left off the race.

Blades of Passion said:
Interestingly, Hanyu's clean performance with Quad Loop at 2017 Worlds only scored 4 points more than his 2015 GPF performance without Quad Loop.

Because he skated first in the group, had he skated last, his scores would be several points higher. Those numbers are just used like ordinal system before. Not much different.

noskates · Apr 2, 2017

Completely agree with Mathman and Blades.......I really dislike seeing some of the men skaters with the poor posture and awkward lines. Yes - they jump and they rotate like tightly wound tops, but the rest of the programs are hunched shoulders, and just basically poor posture. The slouching keeps me from being totally in to Hanyu, Boyang and even a little bit Nathan Chen. And I'm sure it's because the total focus is on those damnable jumps. There should be more to figure skating than a jump. (I'm beginning to sound like a broken record)

andromache · Apr 3, 2017

Don't hate the players, hate the game.

Nathan, Boyang, Hanyu, etc......all the quads, but maybe Jason Brown should be getting more PCS considering the fact he isn't compromising his form/posture to pull off a quad? There isn't enough of a penalty in PCS for being awkward af in how you jump.

Lambari · Apr 3, 2017

Posture becomes a factor for me when the lack of it is jarring, however it usually comes with several other negatives that weight down the presentation like proper skating skills, so it's rarely an isolated problem. I'm talking about singles. On the other hand, the presence of 'out of this world' posture is pleasing, but when the rest of the performance fails to stand out (or just isn't my preference) there's not much it can do. Jason Brown is a sunshine but I'm afraid I won't become a huge fan just because of his posture. Yet somehow my favourites are usually the ones with proper posture so I guess it may play a part, even if subconsciously, in the impact a performances have, but it isn't a limiting factor at all.

Should it be a factor when PCS is adressed? Yes. Should it be the sole reason to not give high PCS for an otherwise more than ideal performance? I don't think so.

MaiKatze · Apr 3, 2017

After reading your thoughts on this I think this is why Seimei LP from 2015 worked better for me than what Yuzuru did at Worlds this year. I love him and he deserves this title, he is the best when he is on. But I saw some things I didn't like much in his LP, things I haven't seen for a while, and now I know it's his posture. He's also looking down a lot. He was very concentrated and he just couldn't sell it like he is able to this time. I guess this is the price for such an ambitious program. Can't have it all.

Li'Kitsu · Apr 3, 2017

Why was it clear again just after reading the title the skater people would pick on is Yuzu? :laugh:

Yes, he doesn't have great posture, but by now he is far, far from the poster child for bad one. The only guy in the top 6 I'd say that has clearly better one is Patrick... especially when it's, as the OP mentioned, related to the question of Skating Skills, Yuzu is the wrong skater to look at.

Meoima · Apr 3, 2017

None of the skaters you guys mention has great posture (or perfect posture) to begin with. :rolleye:

synesthesia · Apr 3, 2017

Meoima said:
None of the skaters you guys mention has great posture (or perfect posture) to begin with.

Not even John Curry?

lappo · Apr 3, 2017

synesthesia said:
Not even John Curry?

John Curry is the (incredibly high) benchmark that everybody looks up to when talking about posture, grace, elegance on ice, period.
That said, I think we should think that the required TES to be competitive nowadays are so high that skaters that still put an effort in integrating lot of quads in a nice choreography and trying to improve their carriage overall should be applauded. It would be extremely difficult (I could easily say impossible) to have another Curry but still we are seeing an improvement (or at least a commitment) with them.

Lambari · Apr 3, 2017

MaiKatze said:
After reading your thoughts on this I think this is why Seimei LP from 2015 worked better for me than what Yuzuru did at Worlds this year. I love him and he deserves this title, he is the best when he is on. But I saw some things I didn't like much in his LP, things I haven't seen for a while, and now I know it's his posture. He's also looking down a lot. He was very concentrated and he just couldn't sell it like he is able to this time. I guess this is the price for such an ambitious program. Can't have it all.

Yet there's people like myself who prefer H&L to SEIMEI by a mile so I guess you really can't have it all. :laugh:

I thought it completely worked as a whole piece and I prefered this program to Patrick's the whole season, although Patrick's comes as a close second between the top men.
.
________________________

And I agree that Yuzuru isn't the poster child for this type of discussion anymore, there's several more fitting examples. But discussing him about this is an old habit so I guess it would come eventually.

mrrice · Apr 3, 2017

You know who good had posture, Paul Whiley and Todd Eldredge. Among the current skaters, I have to go with Patrick Chan and Adam Rippon.

Tolstoj · Apr 3, 2017

andromache said:
Don't hate the players, hate the game.

Nathan, Boyang, Hanyu, etc......all the quads, but maybe Jason Brown should be getting more PCS considering the fact he isn't compromising his form/posture to pull off a quad? There isn't enough of a penalty in PCS for being awkward af in how you jump.

The thing is those quads are so difficult at a point where i think it's easier to focus on the PCS.

I don't believe we'll ever see Jason Brown landing a 4F or a 4ltz, while Boyang or Nathan can definitely improve on the second mark. (i think Boyang is already working on that, his programs are so much better than last season, especially the free skate)

Posture in Program Components

elif

Mathman

andromache

Ares

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

LoulouVi

pETEs (Sasha Fan)

Match Penalty

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Meoima

Match Penalty

noskates

andromache

Lambari

MaiKatze

Li'Kitsu

Meoima

Match Penalty

synesthesia

lappo

Lambari

mrrice

Tolstoj

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