Chan fears for skaters' health/quads

Nika09 said:

I love Men's discipline of FS. Their warrior battle, striving to do more and better. But the route that it takes now and that speed this all moving is intimidating me. Firstly - of course is increasing possibility of injuries. Secondly - is limited PCS. Which considering skating skills, interpretation of music, presentation that I think are as much fundamental in FS as jumps and spins. But how much gap you could get by improving your PCS? 3-5? While one more quad is 8-10 points.
I think the problem is new and upcoming generation due to all this will just give up on second score and will go on just with tec.side. Just for example: Nathan instead of improving his SS and presentation chose add another quad for chance of podium at World's. And it's understandable actually.

Maybe somewhen there will not be notquad jump left and PCS become more important but for now, in closest future IMO possibility of similar QuadPrograms without proper skating skills are very high. I could be wrong though and I really hope i will.

In addition: I prefer different, interesting, unique combinations more than different quads.

But again that's matter of taste and thoughts of course

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yes, it's all about opinions and focus points we're viewing figure skating through

I think that Men's FS world is in that quad madness partially due to the fact that they are 'easier' to value than skating skills, quality of movement in general or putting out an engaging performance, full of musicality and great choreography; hence this unbalanced focus on getting stable quads on board for lots of skaters - because it gives you points and then results (not for all, but often). It seems like the attention and race is now on what gives you points instead what sets you apart - of course, it is not an universal rule.

And there's a personal perspective - some value big jumps/quads more, treating them as an essential part of good performance, some acknowledge the power/impact of big jumps/quads, but at the same time they are looking for more 'substance', skills on the first place, highlighted by those jumps, not the other way around. It's all about the balance - how much of quads are enough for particular viewer; on paper they are relatively 'easy' to assess regarding winning chances, but that's only the paper and another thing is our personal tastes. Same goes to skating skills/interpretation/presentation/expression - there is no exact amount of those suitable for all FS viewers nor judges. I think that 'balance' is a key word for both skaters and scoring system's perspectives regarding current quad race and its effect on PCS scoring in particular and both should go further in similar tempo I feel, to even out/reflect equally this challenging/'fierce battle' side of Men's FS represented by big elements and this maybe less effective on paper, but extremely difficult and challenging general/all-around skating skills, presentation side. As both of those have their respective places in the discipline.

Marin said:

I thought it was 1h or 45 min but could be 1 hour first session , rest and another 45 min.

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It could be...but the conjunction he used was 'to' (and) and not 'ka' (or) but he may have just mis-spoke and meant to say 'or'. :confused2:

drivingmissdaisy said:

I think it's hard to limit quads other than by the Zayak rule.

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Easy as pie. Just change the rules. No one does ten quads in the short program, for instance. Why? The rules limit you to three (assuming you can do a quad-quad but not a quad Axel).

However, even if you do just one quad in your program, you still have to practice it a zillion times.

andromache said:

Couldn't these skaters spend 1 hour on jumps/spins and then a couple more hours on stroking/footwork without compromising their physical health?

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I wonder if it won't come to this scenario - a skater practising big jumps for max amount of time a day he is able to (lets say for an hour) and then doing a physio for the rest of the day to overcome the impact of the former on the body.
I think it is inevitable that SS of the younger generation of skaters are going to suffer in fact we are already seeing this.
Another solution which is already very much on - cheated techniques with 'healthy' dose of pre-rotation + max allowed UR = resulting in a quad which is in fact no other than an overrotated triple (3.25) and hey everyone is happy

Figure skating isn't the first, nor the last sport, never mind other professions, that carries with itself a certain danger to the people who engage in it. It isn't the first or last that ends up with bodies suffering in one way or another long after the person is retired.
It's difficult to draw the line and say, this is too much. Just one quad is enough to get a person really injured. A triple is enough to get a person really injured. Loop as it is, is enough to cause hip problems, especially when we are talking about the -Lo combinations. Step badly after a double and you're in a cast.
Nobody can limit the amount of hours people spend on the ice practicing; some need more, some need less and that's how it'll always be. Patrick can scoff at Yuzuru all he likes but skaters are trying quints in practice even now; this has been going on since Plushenko, it is not news and that they haven't stopped says something about human nature. Athletes are naturally competitive and humans in general want to conquer new heights.

I actually think the solution is both easy and incredibly difficult.

One, skaters and their coaches/teams have to have some responsibility too. We cannot throw everything on ISU.
They together should be able to see when something is reaching the point of harmful. Overtraining isn't a new concept but it varies from skater to skater, depending on their body.

If Kolyada has a threshold of 10 quads, Yuzuru jumps 40 (I think he trains 2 hours overall in a day, in two sessions, one of which is the quad one that lasts about an hour) and he's fine with it. In other words, the skater and their team will know, lets not kid ourselves here, they know how much is too much for a certain individual. They need to take responsibility for that and listen to what the body is telling them. If they're pushing too hard - and they will push too hard whether one quad is allowed or four - injuries and consequences will come.
Case in point again, Hanyu got injured on the 4T while now that he has become more aware of his health, and his body's needs, even though he has more quads, he has stayed injury free. So it very much is possible to regulate yourself (with the help of your team).
The coaches are educated on the subject and if safety is drilled into the heads of kids from the start, it'll help. It won't ever prevent everything but it will massively help.

Two, judges need to score appropriately, according to the rules.

This is the incredibly difficult part. It's been going on for a long time, it's not like Patrick hasn't seen his fair share of candies (now insert you're a hater, blah blah, you're embarrassing yourself, blah blah, there, done it for you, thanks).

Don't reward faulty technique by both ratifying those jumps, ignoring the URs and by throwing positive GOEs at them.
This not only causes an imbalance in scores, but it has far reaching consequences of up and coming skaters seeing that this passes and then deciding that it is all right to have cheated jumps, that by the way, will have a negative impact on the body further on.

Don't reward skaters with huge PCS just based on the quads.
Someone should remind Patrick Nathan Chen exists and that if he wants to open up this topic, even if Nathan is his training buddy, he should then be at least honest about the PCS problem and who's on top of that list. Rules are already there to make sure that if a program has so many quads that the rest of the content is impacted negatively, there are ways for judges to punish this. Rules are there to mark for transitions, so bloody well use them.

Fix the scoring and we'll have a much more even field even for people with less quads and we'll have a clear message that good technique is what equals good scores. Should we mention even something we all know? Had both Patrick, and Javier, skated cleanly, they wouldn't have ended up off the podium. They alone are the cause of that. And yes, that they ended up off the podium is the cause for both of them speaking out.

I also find it funny Patrick didn't mention Yuzuru who sort of spoils his little you can't be an artist and have lots of quads theory. You can. But he came up in the era as the other two did, where you either worked for it and cleaned up your act or the judges actually dinged you for your Lip and your skating skills and your artistry. It took about two years per jump for him when it comes to quads, and that already changes a lot.

And again, before someone asks, yes, if Yuzuru does five and the programs suffers, he absolutely should be dinged for it. Here's the question though. If he does a five quads program with the new 4Lz or does a four quads program with it, the difference is about two points or so. So why then would he push himself into a situation that is more difficult, especially as he himself believes it is important to have balanced programs where jumps are incorporated to the fullest?
Well the answer is simple, isn't it? It's because this is a sport, he wants to win and he has no choice because the GOEs and PCS are being thrown around like candy.

Stop throwing candy and balance will quickly be established. The craze for quads will lessen, quality will improve and overall, safety will increase.

Fix the scoring. Educate coaches and skaters. And all will still bear the scars long post their careers but at least then most won't have major problems.

Yatagarasu said:

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Amen

Interestingly, a new interview with Nathan today:

http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pa...ws/2017/04/featured-interview-nathan-chen-usa

I lost the count how many times he said 'if my body holds up'

altie said:

amen

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x2

While I theoretically agree with Chan and don't really like where the whole quad craze is taking the sport, I find that patrick is not being completely fair in his judgment upon other skaters.
I know that anyone who criticizes patrick chan is labeled as a hater but I am shocked at how easily he dismisses Shoma Uno's great artistry and skating skills, the kid IS good and he can still improve his jumping technique but he completely deserved to come on top of chan and fernandez.

I find his "Fernandez and me" particularly irritating because he makes it sound as though they are the only ones with good artistic skills ( now I admire hanyu even more for acknowledging both boyand jin and Jason Brown in the press conf) while both Yuzuru and maybe shoma have as good if not better all-around skills, his fernandez and me comment is also ironic given that objectively, they are the ones with the most similar and repetitive programs, it's not like they are challenging themselves all that much; what's worse patrick has previously said similar things about Fernandez !
I agree with his concerns for the skater's health but this is all still based on speculation no one knows how the younger skaters are going to be affected by this but their teams must be careful.
In the end, it is interesting to note that Yuzuru Hanyu's 2015 three quad record has not been surpassed by any of the youngsters even with 6 quad clean programs. It is also VERY interesting that chan does not mention hanyu in his argument, he places himself with fernandez on a pedestal as the superior, almost extinct breed of artistic skaters (deliberately ignoring hanyu's balanced performance and his quads that are fully integrated in the artistic performance) who fell as victims of the scoring systems when in reality, they could still have placed higher than shoma with clean three quad programs.

Patrick and Nathan are both extremely talented and intelligent skaters who are capable of being all round champions who have each made a major decision in their career paths.

Patrick, after several years of stellar success with major and Worlds titles, decided to focus on the performance side of figure skating while keeping his technical content. He reportedly learned to do 4S quite easily around 2012 but never included it in a program. 4F was expected from him because of his easy and beautiful 3F. Going against copious quantity of criticism and mocking, he chose and stayed with a dance coach for 3 years. This was a personal goal he achieved magnificently even with a sabbatical. However, this pursuit is certainly disadvantageous in competitiveness within the current ISU scoring system and judging propensity and biases. He came back to competitive skating to a drastically changed landscape with quads galore and young quad phenoms are kings and king wannabes. He is in a position of balancing artistry and increasing BV with additional quads to be adequately competitive without compromising his current and future health.

Nathan, OTOH, has shown both technical and artistic talents since a very young age. At the time he was about to join the Senior rank and begin his "real" career in skating, and perhaps challenged and shown the way by another youngster who had just burst on the scene and made his mark, decided on the path of maxing out his TES with the highest scoring elements, the quads. He seems to know the extremely high health risks involved and to have made an informed decision to trade longevity and health for a possibly short but history making career and glory.

Chan made a personal decision to be the best skater he could be based on his idea of an ideal figure skater while Nathan made a decision to win and shine at all costs based on the ISU scoring system. I think they have both succeeded with Patrick nearing the close of his brilliant competitive career and Nathan beginning his, albeit with much uncertainty of how long he can stay in this business.

I think that the factor of PCS should be increased, it is clear that from the other disciplines that it was designed with the intent of being around 50%-50% in worth. It is understandable that skaters do not focus on PCS since there aren't that many points to win. Increase the factor and make it 50%-50% and have higher expectations and there would be fewer quads - since they take a lot of energy and in some cases time to set-up, and reward difficult transitions, edge-depth, body-movement and so on more. Make it worthwhile cause we have a lot of skaters with amazing skill and potential.

I'm not against quads (I really enjoy them actually) but I do get sad when other aspects of skating suffer from it. Improved skating skill should theoretically help with safety when doing quads as well perhaps? Also if the factor was higher for PCS falling on a quad would be worth less so perhaps less attempts on quads still-in-progress.

Given Patrick comments, I don't think it is fair to call Shoma un-artistic (if that is what he is doing) but I do think he is right in saying that Shoma, Boyang and Nathan do, for understandable aforementioned reasons, not have as much one-footed skating and difficult transitions as himself (he implied this specifically in another interview). Patrick is also I believe from a system where PCS were more harshly judged than they are now, he was more incentivized to work on those skills, which take time and effort, as well as a lot of stamina in a program. If that is true and to what extent can be discussed of course, I'm not claiming to be an unbiased expert on this (Patrick and Yuzuru are among my faves).

OS said:

Sorry but I'd have to disagree. Being in control do require certain stiffness (centred core like ballet) and there are many ways to interpret a piece of music beyond the facial expressions, or an emotional one. You show a classically quiet sombre performance by Yo Yo Ma to someone who only ever listens to happy songs by the Bee Gees, they may be bored initially because they are not used to it , but it shouldn't stop them learning about classical music if they are open minded enough, and can learn to appreciate what is a superior version of the same performance, same music....and Vice Versa.

Patrick's best performance (FS in recent years) are very suited to the music in the classic genre, and he deserves the HIGHEST PCS when he delivers. I'd also argue he has also improved more in the PCS criteriors vs his peers in the refinement and subtlety that has not been seen in others, that should absolutely be valued among the connoisseurs of the sport who expect the highest standard of craftmanship within the confines of pure skating movements. For me at least, his FS this year is a complete gem. For starters, it has an original piece of music, and original choreography that doesn't feel reptitive and done for the sake of putting in quads, COP hacked layout for the sake of points scoring. Everything is put together with care and thoughtfulness and developed organically without ever feel 'packaged'.

Patrick's FS programs in recent years all feel like in search of something new and redefining beautiful skating and thus deserve all the accolades it gets. I wouldn't be surprised if it is his programs that last the ages among the skaters, where as Hanyu's FS feels like a marvelous spectacle, the sort of comeback with gravitas only Superstars like Yuzu can do. They should be celebrated for different reasons, but all bring their own unique quality to it.

I just pray there's no injuries this year. With Josh coming back, and Han Yan getting his shoulder issue sorted, we should have a very exciting men's year leading to the Olympics.

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I love it when I don't have to take the time to attempt writing such a brilliant post... THANK YOU I agree completely with everything you say....

Interpretation, performance is not only/always about facial expressions.

Patrick skates with his entire body, he is absolutely beautiful to watch live as every one of his moves goes with the music in an organic way.

I have seen two live competitions last year so about 30 men of the Canadian and international Elite... nobody comes even close to Patrick when it comes to beautiful performance of his programs. He is the music on the ice..... and yet, still plans 3 quads in his LP.

So he fears for others' safety but aims to add a quad flip to his repertoire before the Olympics? What?????

"When I won worlds (in 2011)... I thought there was no way anyone would do a quad Lutz in my lifetime, let alone during my career. But I was proven wrong," said Chan, who hopes to add a quad flip to his repertoire in time for the Olympics.

Violet Bliss said:

Nathan, OTOH, has shown both technical and artistic talents since a very young age. At the time he was about to join the Senior rank and begin his "real" career in skating, and perhaps challenged and shown the way by another youngster who had just burst on the scene and made his mark, decided on the path of maxing out his TES with the highest scoring elements, the quads. He seems to know the extremely high health risks involved and to have made an informed decision to trade longevity and health for a possibly short but history making career and glory.

Chan made a personal decision to be the best skater he could be based on his idea of an ideal figure skater while Nathan made a decision to win and shine at all costs based on the ISU scoring system. I think they have both succeeded with Patrick nearing the close of his brilliant competitive career and Nathan beginning his, albeit with much uncertainty of how long he can stay in this business.

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I agree with your assessment. What bothers me is that Patrick is a full-fledged adult, while Nathan is still a youth who could benefit from the responsible guidance of people around him. I understand his striving, but I question them. Similar to how I understand Yuzu wanting to skate after his CoC collision, but feel he shouldn't have been allowed to.

Mathman said:

Easy as pie. Just change the rules. No one does ten quads in the short program, for instance. Why? The rules limit you to three (assuming you can do a quad-quad but not a quad Axel).

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Slight correction: it's limited to 2 right now, no matter what you do. The Axel jump has to be double or triple; the combination has to be: 3+2, 3+3, 4+2 or 4+3. A 4+4 isn't allowed yet. So the most you can do for now is 3A + 4-3 + 4 out of steps.

Yatagarasu said:

whole post

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Amen x3.

chuckm said:

So he fears for others' safety but aims to add a quad flip to his repertoire before the Olympics? What?????

"When I won worlds (in 2011)... I thought there was no way anyone would do a quad Lutz in my lifetime, let alone during my career. But I was proven wrong," said Chan, who hopes to add a quad flip to his repertoire in time for the Olympics.

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probably feels like he has to, if hes in any shot of podium

Took him almost two years to land 4s with any kind of consistency. 4f is much harder---he thinks he can land it consistently in 9 months? It won't matter anyway. Chan needs clean programs to beat the multiquad guys who can skate clean programs. Adding more jumps he hasn't quite mastered is a sure way to not have clean programs.

I totally agree with Chan. Tara and Alexi are perfect examples. One might even say Michele too. But have to agree that those Quads are sure nice to see in competition.

andromache said:

Also, I lol every time I see so much Boyang love and read about how he is sooooo much better than Nathan, as if Nathan's presentation is trash.

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Offtopic, but if you read the competition threads I think you'll find that the exact opposite of this has been happening, especially during and​ after 4CC.

chuckm said:

So he fears for others' safety but aims to add a quad flip to his repertoire before the Olympics? What?????

"When I won worlds (in 2011)... I thought there was no way anyone would do a quad Lutz in my lifetime, let alone during my career. But I was proven wrong," said Chan, who hopes to add a quad flip to his repertoire in time for the Olympics.

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chuckm said:

Took him almost two years to land 4s with any kind of consistency. 4f is much harder---he thinks he can land it consistently in 9 months? It won't matter anyway. Chan needs clean programs to beat the multiquad guys who can skate clean programs. Adding more jumps he hasn't quite mastered is a sure way to not have clean programs.

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Two years to land 4S with any kind of consistency? Patrick has taken a very careful approach to regain and improve on his technical difficulty since his comeback last season and the progress has been amazing. He started out with one quad and one 3A in his LP and by 4CC he landed two quads and two 3A beautifully even though Worlds 2016 was a mess. He started this season with two quads and two 3A but started including 4S in his LP at Skate Canada, and by the Canadian Nationals and Worlds he was landing text book 4S in a three quad two 3A LP. Not bad for an old guy, eh?

If and when Chan adds a quad to his program, it is always a carefully thought out process. There wouldn't be great sacrifice of program components that he values but as his fan I would advocate for him to add difficulty safely even with a small degree of reducing the not so essential program components. These days PCS comes with quads anyway. Patrick has most likely another year of competition to go and there wouldn't be years of multiple quad practices and performances after that. So if he can do it safely and not incur injury next season, I say go ahead to show us a beautiful 4F his fans have been hoping for and the rest what he at 26 can add and do that would put most young skaters to shame. Then he will still have years of artistic performances to bring us. As fans, we are very happy and supportive that he is careful with his health and also about his ability to balance technical difficulty with artistry.

lilsailor said:

probably feels like he has to, if hes in any shot of podium

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Chan has been on the podium regularly since his comeback. However, winning medals is no longer the top priority with him and his fans. He has been very successful in achieving his personal goals, and in due process, medals are won. We celebrate the progress, the medals, and especially the performances. I will be extremely happy for him to win the big titles but am very happy if he just keep on being the all round wonderful skater who brings us truly amazing and memorable performances. I think that's where his mind is at too these days. After all, he has had medals galore in his career.

The difference with the youngsters is that one needs to hurry to be the first in some new accomplishment. Yet they are still physically growing with years of training and competing ahead if they can stay healthy. There is much gambling with injuries, both immediate and long term, and longevity against learning and executing the most demanding, risky, and high scoring elements sooner and more than anybody else.