Chinese Artistry | Golden Skate

Chinese Artistry

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
I couldn't help noticing how well choreographed the Chinese ladies' FX were in the Olympics. All of the moves were choreographed with the music in mind, the music was great and the girls had such flair. In addition , the girls were very young.

I can't help but wonder why the Chinese lose points for their artistry in figure skating. Shen and Zhao have taken years to become artistic , the other pairs aren't very artistic, and the Chinese men have always had the quads however they were buried in the pack b/c of their lack of presentation skills.

Obviously the Chinese have it in them to choreograph great programs for gymnastics, why is this not coming through in their skating program?
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Actually Pang & Tong have better artistry than any other Chinese pair, including S&Z. Chen Lu was one of the most artistic skaters. I belive that the Chinese coaches are emphasizing the big tricks at the cost of artistry. The whole thrust of the Chinese pairs is throwing high and far, completing more revolutions in jumps. They don't even seem to work on artistry until they become medal contenders. Pang & Tong are an exception to that. Tong in particular is very good.
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Chen Lu was artistic, but I never really count her b/c her programs were choreographed by Western choreographers (Bezic and Cranston). I know the other chinese skaters use western choreographers as well but somehow they aren't very artistic (the men are especially penalized even though I think they get a bum rap (they aren't worse than Goebel)). However I think the Chinese exclusively choreograph for the gymnastics team and the girls had a lot of style on the floor (at least the two that I have seen). Why don't/can't the Chinese choreograph for their skaters?
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Tong has an excellent posture.

S&Z did have Chinese choreographers in the beginning. When they were not winning, they hired (or their fed did) Leeann Miller. That seemed to work, so they continued with western choreograhers. I think the reason the chinese choreo works in gymnastics but not in FS is that gymnastics depend mainly on athleticism, and the chinese are good at it.
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
The thing that stood out in the Chinese girls' programs wasn't so much the tumbling but how their dance elements really matched with the music. There were peaks in the music and the girls' would really match the peak with an emphatic movement. Skating is pretty athletic in that the chinese can put leaps and spins to match the music but somehow they don't have that subtlety in their programs like the girls did in gymnastics.
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
One reason I believe there might be some geographyc or cultural diff behind it. Because of some historicall reason, southen china has more of western cultral influence, and people live there tends to have smaller body frame. Most chinese skaters (may be all of them)are from northen part of china (basically north of Peking). While most top chinese gymnastists are from southern china. So these girls may have some natural sense of musics.

Chinese are good at athleticism because these elements, which composed much of gymnastics, diving, FS elements, are much similar to traditional chinese Gongfu, WuShu.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I don't think it took years for S&Z to get artistry. They already had artistry with the Chinese choreographers. It wasn't until Leann Miller Europeanzied them that the European judges began to notice them. It was a 'you must conform to our standards'. 'we don't recognize your cultural'. Oh, the sport is so subjectively biased.

Joe
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Joesitz said:
I don't think it took years for S&Z to get artistry. They already had artistry with the Chinese choreographers. It wasn't until Leann Miller Europeanzied them that the European judges began to notice them. It was a 'you must conform to our standards'. 'we don't recognize your cultural'. Oh, the sport is so subjectively biased.

Joe

That's my sentimental exactly. But now when they got recognized by western standard that they finally decided going back to chinese cultural. They choose chinese music this season. Introduce the chinese cultral and style to the FS in world stage always has being BinYao and S&Z's goal.
 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I'm wondering about what 'artistry' before they went to Miller that Joe and Mzheng are talking about. For example, I saw a ton of that Chinese flair in Lu Chen's "Butterfly Lovers", even though Lu has always been working with western choreographers. I loved the program because in it Lu epitomized that distinct lyricism and passion of the Chinese culture (at least what I recognized). But I never saw the same lyricism in S/Z even before they got supposedly "westernized". So I don't believe that their "chinese artistry" got "transformed" into something western, because they didn't have much of that to begin with. All I saw was athleticism and more athleticism. Miller and others IMO just gave them a polished international look, and the style that they have now is certainly NOT what I'd call "European".
 
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soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
S&Z took a long time to build up their artistry and style. Maybe it's unfair of me to pick on their early artistry b/c unlike the Russians who have lots of pairs teams (therefore the cream rises to the top), S&Z did their polishing on the world stage verses developing it before going to worlds. However S&Z had horrible times synchronizing their spins and other elements when they first started competing. It is only now that they have really come into their own and are skating as a team.

One question, why don't the Chinese recruit the lady skaters from the South (where they get their girl gymnasts)? I think it's kind of odd how the chinese pairs ladies are taller than their Western counterparts and it's not really healthy to force a 5'7 skater to weigh 100 pounds. I know the training center is in the North, but surely they can recruit a few girls to move away from home.
 

RIskatingfan

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Vash01 said:
Actually Pang & Tong have better artistry than any other Chinese pair, including S&Z.
:eek: I think that's the first time I've ever see someone making this kind of comment about them. I've seen many compliments on their technical elements, throws, etc, but not on artistry. Maybe their presentation isn't as bad as most people say, but that their are artistic... surely skating is a very subjective sport.
 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I second Vash re: Tong. P&T might not have S&Z's polish, but in terms of raw performing ability and musicality, I do think they've always had an edge over S&Z.
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
As a rule in figure skating, pairs take a long time to really develop artistically and it took the Chinese a long time to develop in this area. Something they had to work on and they did. Even North American, Russian and European pairs don't hit their stride artistically over night. It takes a tremendous amount of work.

As for Lu Chen. Her lovely program choreographed by Toller was skated to a Chinese theme. Even her arm movements were based on her culture.
 

BronzeisGolden

Medalist
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
S&Z certainly don't have the classic form or the traditional artistic style of the famous Russian pairs, but I find them much more exciting and moving for other reasons. They've improved nearly every aspect of their skating so much, but they've retained and even improved upon their ability to display so successfully exactly how they are feeling on the ice. When they are flying high and skating a perfect program...you can always see it in their faces (and movements, etc.). So many of the Russian pairs worked/work so hard in maintaining that classic image that sometimes that extra emotional charge is missing. I look at so many of the Russian pairs and say, "Wow...how beautiful!". I often look at S&Z and say "Wow....how beautiful....and exciting!" This is all my humble opinion and a bit simplistic, but that is the best way I can describe what a clean, emotionally super-charged S&Z can do for me. So...if this is the "Chinese" style...I definitely would love more!
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
shine said:
I second Vash re: Tong. P&T might not have S&Z's polish, but in terms of raw performing ability and musicality, I do think they've always had an edge over S&Z.

Tong may be, but not Pan. Pan's expression and performance always looks a little forced and stiffed.
 
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mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
soogar said:
One question, why don't the Chinese recruit the lady skaters from the South (where they get their girl gymnasts)? I think it's kind of odd how the chinese pairs ladies are taller than their Western counterparts and it's not really healthy to force a 5'7 skater to weigh 100 pounds. I know the training center is in the North, but surely they can recruit a few girls to move away from home.

There was no skating rink in southern part of chinese. Though recently they've built one at KungMin, a southern province near where most top level chinese gymnastists had been 10 or 20 years ago. And there was a report two skating rinks are being build in ShangHai, the biggest city in china. The Chinese federation is pushing the sport systematically to the southern part of china.

I'd give them 10 years and they will have top ladies like LuChen who'll able to compete at the top in the world stage. They take the sport programs seriously, nearly all these programs are goverment funding, now blended with some corperative sponsors (westernization). And they have dedicate sport scientists doing research for those atheletes if they found out they have the potential to be the best in the world.
 

kappa_1

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 2, 2003
Originally posted by BronzeisgoldenS&Z certainly don't have the classic form or the traditional artistic style of the famous Russian pairs, but I find them much more exciting and moving for other reasons. They've improved nearly every aspect of their skating so much, but they've retained and even improved upon their ability to display so successfully exactly how they are feeling on the ice. When they are flying high and skating a perfect program...you can always see it in their faces (and movements, etc.). So many of the Russian pairs worked/work so hard in maintaining that classic image that sometimes that extra emotional charge is missing. I look at so many of the Russian pairs and say, "Wow...how beautiful!". I often look at S&Z and say "Wow....how beautiful....and exciting!" This is all my humble opinion and a bit simplistic, but that is the best way I can describe what a clean, emotionally super-charged S&Z can do for me. So...if this is the "Chinese" style...I definitely would love more!

ITA !!!!

Also Pang and Tong have nice line, extension, and artistic expression in their movement, but they still have a far way to go to reach S/Z's overall level of presentation.
 

thvudragon

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Vash01 said:
Actually Pang & Tong have better artistry than any other Chinese pair, including S&Z. The whole thrust of the Chinese pairs is throwing high and far, completing more revolutions in jumps. They don't even seem to work on artistry until they become medal contenders. Pang & Tong are an exception to that. Tong in particular is very good.
I must disagree. Out of the top 3, I find Pang and Tong the least artistic. They never skate to the beat leaving a sense that they are completely disconnected to the music. I don't know how they can be "artistic" when they can't even skate to a simple beat. I also find their moves sloppier than S&Z and at times, Z&Z. At least Z&Z can manage to skate to the beat, which gives them a basis over Pang & Tong in even coming close to interpreting music.

TV
 

jesslily

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 4, 2004
Tong and Pang are very stiff. They can do some dance on their arms, but their legs don't have any extention. They are very slender so the jumps and throws are easy for them.
Even though there are some top pair skaters in China, acturally the field is not as deep as in US. Not many people doing the coaching and choreography with artistic personlity. They can rely ballet companies to help, but these dancers don't know much about figure skating. Actually there are many Chinese dance pieces are well choreographed. I f they know skating moves, they can help the skaters tremendously.
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I think Pang and Tong look better on TV than in person. At Dortmund, they looked like they were cutting the rink short and rushing quite a bit, which, to me, looked a bit more frenzied than fast. However, they're still quite young and have enormous potential. They've only been working with Lee Ann Miller for a year, were coached in a vacuum by Tong for a while, and lost a lot of practice time due to the SARS outbreak.

I really like Zhang/Zhang, because they look very comfortable together on the ice. I think they could surpass Pang and Tong with better choreography, but I don't think they'll be allowed it anytime soon, because it would affect the current pecking order.

With Totmianina/Marinin in the mix, and Obertas/Slavnov as an up-and-coming contender, I don't see a sweep for China in Turin.
 
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