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Thread: Chinese Artistry

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by soogar
    One question, why don't the Chinese recruit the lady skaters from the South (where they get their girl gymnasts)? I think it's kind of odd how the chinese pairs ladies are taller than their Western counterparts and it's not really healthy to force a 5'7 skater to weigh 100 pounds. I know the training center is in the North, but surely they can recruit a few girls to move away from home.
    There was no skating rink in southern part of chinese. Though recently they've built one at KungMin, a southern province near where most top level chinese gymnastists had been 10 or 20 years ago. And there was a report two skating rinks are being build in ShangHai, the biggest city in china. The Chinese federation is pushing the sport systematically to the southern part of china.

    I'd give them 10 years and they will have top ladies like LuChen who'll able to compete at the top in the world stage. They take the sport programs seriously, nearly all these programs are goverment funding, now blended with some corperative sponsors (westernization). And they have dedicate sport scientists doing research for those atheletes if they found out they have the potential to be the best in the world.

  2. #17
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    Originally posted by BronzeisgoldenS&Z certainly don't have the classic form or the traditional artistic style of the famous Russian pairs, but I find them much more exciting and moving for other reasons. They've improved nearly every aspect of their skating so much, but they've retained and even improved upon their ability to display so successfully exactly how they are feeling on the ice. When they are flying high and skating a perfect program...you can always see it in their faces (and movements, etc.). So many of the Russian pairs worked/work so hard in maintaining that classic image that sometimes that extra emotional charge is missing. I look at so many of the Russian pairs and say, "Wow...how beautiful!". I often look at S&Z and say "Wow....how beautiful....and exciting!" This is all my humble opinion and a bit simplistic, but that is the best way I can describe what a clean, emotionally super-charged S&Z can do for me. So...if this is the "Chinese" style...I definitely would love more!
    ITA !!!!

    Also Pang and Tong have nice line, extension, and artistic expression in their movement, but they still have a far way to go to reach S/Z's overall level of presentation.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    Actually Pang & Tong have better artistry than any other Chinese pair, including S&Z. The whole thrust of the Chinese pairs is throwing high and far, completing more revolutions in jumps. They don't even seem to work on artistry until they become medal contenders. Pang & Tong are an exception to that. Tong in particular is very good.
    I must disagree. Out of the top 3, I find Pang and Tong the least artistic. They never skate to the beat leaving a sense that they are completely disconnected to the music. I don't know how they can be "artistic" when they can't even skate to a simple beat. I also find their moves sloppier than S&Z and at times, Z&Z. At least Z&Z can manage to skate to the beat, which gives them a basis over Pang & Tong in even coming close to interpreting music.

    TV

  4. #19
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    Tong and Pang are very stiff. They can do some dance on their arms, but their legs don't have any extention. They are very slender so the jumps and throws are easy for them.
    Even though there are some top pair skaters in China, acturally the field is not as deep as in US. Not many people doing the coaching and choreography with artistic personlity. They can rely ballet companies to help, but these dancers don't know much about figure skating. Actually there are many Chinese dance pieces are well choreographed. I f they know skating moves, they can help the skaters tremendously.

  5. #20
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    I think Pang and Tong look better on TV than in person. At Dortmund, they looked like they were cutting the rink short and rushing quite a bit, which, to me, looked a bit more frenzied than fast. However, they're still quite young and have enormous potential. They've only been working with Lee Ann Miller for a year, were coached in a vacuum by Tong for a while, and lost a lot of practice time due to the SARS outbreak.

    I really like Zhang/Zhang, because they look very comfortable together on the ice. I think they could surpass Pang and Tong with better choreography, but I don't think they'll be allowed it anytime soon, because it would affect the current pecking order.

    With Totmianina/Marinin in the mix, and Obertas/Slavnov as an up-and-coming contender, I don't see a sweep for China in Turin.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    They've only been working with Lee Ann Miller for a year, were coached in a vacuum by Tong for a while, and lost a lot of practice time due to the SARS outbreak.

    I really like Zhang/Zhang, because they look very comfortable together on the ice. I think they could surpass Pang and Tong with better choreography, but I don't think they'll be allowed it anytime soon, because it would affect the current pecking order.
    .
    Both Pan/Tong and Zhang/Zhang use Zuline as their choreographer this season, and I think this is the first time the froeign choreogrpher dose chore for both team. Both of them will have new LP, while keep their old SP, the latest report from chinese disscussion board.

  7. #22
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    Well,I know the discussion began to turn to S/Z,P/T,Z/Z,ect.But I have to say something about Chinese gymnasts.Actually,the Chinese girls' floor exercises aren't choreographed by CHINESE THEMSELVES,they are choreographed by a choreographer named Pop who also choreographed Ponor's floor exercises(I think a lot of people here know Ponor ,huh?)

    PS:the music for S/Z next season isn't a piece of CHINESE MUSIC,it's composed by a JAPANESE musician,Kitaro.

  8. #23
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    The book about the pairs competition in Salt Lake City, The Second Mark, has some really interesting information about the history of pairs skating in China. I strongly recommend it. It talks about how Shen and Zhou progressed through the intl figure skating ranks- initially focusing on huge technical skills in part because they believed they could never get the artistic scores from the international judges- they could gain respect and recognition only by doing skills that were bigger and riskier than anyone else. It talks about their transition from working with only Chinese choreographers to working with Western Choreographers, and their struggle to incorporate Western ideas of artistry and expression into their programs.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzheng
    Both Pan/Tong and Zhang/Zhang use Zuline as their choreographer this season, and I think this is the first time the froeign choreogrpher dose chore for both team. Both of them will have new LP, while keep their old SP, the latest report from chinese disscussion board.
    According to Pang and Tong's bio on the ISU website, Yao Bin and Lee Ann Miller were P/T's choreographers last season. Will this be the fourth year in a row that P/T use their SP?

    That's great news about Zhulin working with Z/Z. I had only heard that SZ was working with P/T.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    I think Pang and Tong look better on TV than in person. At Dortmund, they looked like they were cutting the rink short and rushing quite a bit, which, to me, looked a bit more frenzied than fast. However, they're still quite young and have enormous potential. They've only been working with Lee Ann Miller for a year, were coached in a vacuum by Tong for a while, and lost a lot of practice time due to the SARS outbreak.

    I really like Zhang/Zhang, because they look very comfortable together on the ice. I think they could surpass Pang and Tong with better choreography, but I don't think they'll be allowed it anytime soon, because it would affect the current pecking order.

    With Totmianina/Marinin in the mix, and Obertas/Slavnov as an up-and-coming contender, I don't see a sweep for China in Turin.
    Actually I saw Pang & Tong skate live in the 2002 Olympics and they were very good there. I had not liked them on TV at all.

    T&M would be a factor in Torino. However, I don't see Obertas & Slavnov being a factor unless Slavnov corrects his sloppy posture. He looks like a junior level skater. It is particularly painful to look at him because Yulia is such a beautiful skater.

    For any country to sweep, a lot of things have to happen. I find it offensive that people are even talking about a Chinese sweep in 2006 when the reigning world champions are from Russia. Even when USSR/Russia was at the very top in the 1980's and 90's they never swept the podium. Their best finish was 1-2-4, when others were not even serious contenders. There is always a finite probability that the Chinese could sweep but a lot of things will have to go wrong for all the Russian pairs and the top Canadian and US pairs (and I have not even considered European pairs like Zagorska-Siudek who I expect to make big improvements).

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by icer
    The book about the pairs competition in Salt Lake City, The Second Mark, has some really interesting information about the history of pairs skating in China. I strongly recommend it. It talks about how Shen and Zhou progressed through the intl figure skating ranks- initially focusing on huge technical skills in part because they believed they could never get the artistic scores from the international judges- they could gain respect and recognition only by doing skills that were bigger and riskier than anyone else. It talks about their transition from working with only Chinese choreographers to working with Western Choreographers, and their struggle to incorporate Western ideas of artistry and expression into their programs.
    I've read a lot review of the book, but after all it was written by a western jurnalist. IMO, in order to truly understand what Shen/Zhao and their coach been through and thought, I heard there is a book written by BinYao in chinese, I believe that book would truely reflected what they really thought.

    I've been reading in chinese board there were a lot interview with Shen/Zhao, one thing they said as a chinese pair in order to break into the rank in a traditional western/european sport you have to be header and shoulder better your western competetor. Compare with artistry impression, the big tricks have to be judged much objective, that's why they went for those skill first. Lu Chen basically said the similar things in one of her interview. LuChen is now back in china, she's openning a FS school there.
    Last edited by mzheng; 08-28-2004 at 12:08 AM.

  12. #27
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    I believe the artistry came naturally to Chen Lu. She was very consistent with the triple jumps but they were never big. I see her more as an exception than a rule.

    I suspect Pang & Tong are somewhat like her. Their artistry has not really been worked on because the Chinese emphasize only the high throws and high twists. They don't have the polish of S&Z or the charisma of Z&Z (particularly the lady Zhang), but artistry is more natural to them. I watched them live in SLC and I was impressed with that performance. On TV I don't actually like them. Also Z&Z are more exciting live (not artistic, however). Also I don't see S&Z as 'beautiful' or artistic. They are an athletic pair that has carved a nitch.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    T&M would be a factor in Torino. However, I don't see Obertas & Slavnov being a factor unless Slavnov corrects his sloppy posture. He looks like a junior level skater. It is particularly painful to look at him because Yulia is such a beautiful skater.
    Judges don't care about posture that much.. Pang's posture is still awful but it didn't hold back Pang/Tong who at last year's worlds won bronze and got some votes for silver.
    Last edited by GoldenSwan; 08-28-2004 at 01:45 AM.

  14. #29
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    That's exactly my concern. These days they are not paying attention to the finer points of skating. IIRC posture is/was one of the presentation criteria. I will not be surprised if they threw it out the window while creating the COP. That should help particularly the Chinese. Slavnov's posture is particularly painful to watch because Yulia is so beautiful. Actually pet-Tik have a similar problem. Alexei has a poor posture. In addition to the posture though, Slavnov still looks like a junior level skater. May be by next worlds he will improve. I don't expect to see the posture improve though. I think it must be hard to correct it once one is past a certain age (or Tim Goebel would have hope).

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    That's exactly my concern. These days they are not paying attention to the finer points of skating. IIRC posture is/was one of the presentation criteria. I will not be surprised if they threw it out the window while creating the COP. That should help particularly the Chinese. Slavnov's posture is particularly painful to watch because Yulia is so beautiful. Actually pet-Tik have a similar problem. Alexei has a poor posture.
    I think the same is true of Siudek and Archetto. I think Marinin has the best posture among the men in the top teams.

    I don't think changing posture is a hopeless task, though, particularly when the man isn't so much taller than the women that he hunches over. (Or with Moskvina cracking the whip.) Zhang looked so much better in the exhibition in Dortmund that I thought I was looking at a different skater than the one with his butt in the air in his camel position in the LP pairs spin. Bluesy music seems to suit him well.

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