View Poll Results: Should Paul Hamm Relinquish the AA Gold Medal?

Voters
141. You may not vote on this poll
  • YES, he should give it up even if it's not "official."

    17 12.06%
  • NO, it's his. He won it fair & square.

    111 78.72%
  • He should wait and see what transpires over the next few days as officials sort out the mess.

    9 6.38%
  • I don't know enough to render an opinion.

    4 2.84%
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 65

Thread: Should Paul Hamm Relinquish the AA Gold Medal?

  1. #16
    bugs are smarter than we are bronxgirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    south florida
    Posts
    1,197
    I also wonder, given the lack of popularity of the US foreign policies in Europe ,if thishas increased the crowds disdain for the performance of the American athletes (as if any of them had any thing to do with our foreign policy)

  2. #17
    Sal-Kowabunga!
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Posts
    971
    Poor Paul. Going after the crowd had a fit over Alexsei Nemov's bar routine. He could have had a meltdown, like Svetlana Khorkina on the bar finals, and stomped off like a spoiled brat. Instead, he went on to do a medal-worthy bar routine. Yes, he must have loved the crowd's oohs and aahs during his routine. Let's face it, those three high release moves are flashy. But then, the crowd booed his scores. All in all, a strange night for a young man caught in a furor he didn't make and can't solve. (Personally, I think it is unsolvable.)

    (Aside for Paul -- remember that the crowd cheered you and Nemov and the Italian winner. Forget the boos. They had nothing to do with you! I hope you finally get a chance to enjoy your accomplishments at these games. Because you were terrific.)

    Start values and scoring are done by human beings, trying to follow incredibly complex rules. Every gymnast (and their coaches and federations) brings different interpretations to these rules. And, then, since noone is perfect all the time, judges must assign a value for what each gymnast does on each apparatus in every rotation of every competition. You don't have to be happy. And not everyone will be. No matter what.

  3. #18
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,213
    also wonder, given the lack of popularity of the US foreign policies in Europe ,if thishas increased the crowds disdain for the performance of the American athletes
    I think that is what several overzealous, head-line-hungry journalists would like us to believe. I'm sure it hasn't helped...but the rest of the world has eyes and ears. They see how horrific the judging has been in these Olympics. It certainly didn't seem like Hamm had any lack of support during his High Bar performance last night. I found the same article that Ptichka posted and I completely agree with it....the media went WAY too far this time. There was one scathing article on NBC.com that even made Hamm out as some sort of super villain!
    Last edited by BronzeisGolden; 08-24-2004 at 08:05 PM.

  4. #19
    Sal-Kowabunga!
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Posts
    971
    Thank you, Ptichka, for posting the link to the Sports Illustrated column. I think he was very kind in rebutting those other columnists who went bananas over the whole thing. The Koreans are entitled to their feelings and their formal complaints, but those hysterical people who clamored for Paul to step aside were unfair and out of line.

    Bet that sometime in the next Olympic cycle, we hear of some new rule that gets the sobriquet, the Paul Hamm Rule.

    Also, Mathman, can we do a poll on Christine Brennan. I liked you solution.

  5. #20
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,926
    I don't think Hamm should just hand over his gold medal to his rival. He has worked hard for it and one cannot easily part with it. Besides, he had nothing to do with the outcome. He did his routine. However, something did go wrong. I would not say he won it fair and square. He needs to let the authorities sort things out. I doubt that anything will come out of this. Gymnastics would not want a precedence of a duplicate gold medal. That could make things even worse in the future. I think it will all calm down after some time. In the hoopla, however, everyone seems to forget that had Paul not had that fall on the vault, there would not be any discussion. He would have won without any controversy. Let him share at least some responsibility in what is going on.

  6. #21
    Go NJ Devils
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    2,700
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    In the hoopla, however, everyone seems to forget that had Paul not had that fall on the vault, there would not be any discussion. He would have won without any controversy. Let him share at least some responsibility in what is going on.
    And athletes are now responsible for performances that create close decisions? I think Hamm had no responsibility for what is "going on," which is in the hands of the judges and supervisor. He performed within the rules; that's what he is responsible for.

  7. #22
    Ice Angel
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    739
    I think that the judges and all the committees should thoroughly review all the base value and deductions. If the end result does show that Korean guy deserve the gold, the IOC should give another gold to him. If the Winter Game could give dual gold to Russia and Canada, why can't this time to USA and Korea?

  8. #23
    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    953
    Quote Originally Posted by jesslily
    I think that the judges and all the committees should thoroughly review all the base value and deductions. If the end result does show that Korean guy deserve the gold, the IOC should give another gold to him. If the Winter Game could give dual gold to Russia and Canada, why can't this time to USA and Korea?
    Again, just to clarify. I think that medal decisions are left up to the individual sports' organizations, and only involve the IOC when they interfer with how the Olys are viewed. I agree with this.

    In SLC, the IOC did NOT give out double gold. That was the brainchild of the ISU. Compelety unlike what happen in Athens, the ISU's judge admitted to cheating. The IOC, embarassed by the bad rap the Olys were getting for yet another of the ISU's curruption scandals, told them to sort it out. Why do an investigation into the charges, when the double gold was so much easier and no heads rolled? The judge who admitted to cheating is now running to be head of the powerful French Skating Union. :(

  9. #24
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    7,279
    Quote Originally Posted by jesslily
    I think that the judges and all the committees should thoroughly review all the base value and deductions. If the end result does show that Korean guy deserve the gold, the IOC should give another gold to him. If the Winter Game could give dual gold to Russia and Canada, why can't this time to USA and Korea?
    The FIG, like the ISU, operates under rules governing competitions and objections when there is an error. According to those rules, Korean gymnast Yang is not entitled to a second gold medal, and here's why.

    During a rotation, when an athlete is announced to perform his/her exercise, the Start Value (SV) of the routine is displayed on the scoreboard for everyone--including the coaches--to see. That was the case when Yang came up to do his Parallel Bar (PB) routine in the 5th rotation. The Korean coaches SAW that he was given the wrong SV. To correct that, all they had to do was go immediately to the judges and hand them a written objection, and the SV would have been corrected. But they didn't.

    Why? Well maybe it was because in the previous (4th) rotation, Paul Hamm had received a 9.137 on his vault, and at that point Korean gymnasts Yang and Kim were way ahead of Paul on points, with only the PB and High Bar (HB) remaining for Hamm and Yang. Hamm had scored below 9.8 on both PB and HB in the qualification and team competitions, so it seemed Yang had a comfortable 'cushion'. At the end of the 5th rotation, only the HB remained, and Yang needed only 9.55 to win (and he had scored 9.737 on the HB in the qualification competition).

    For whatever reason, the Koreans didn't file a written protest before the end of the 5th rotation as required under the rules.

    In the 6th rotation, Yang and Hamm were the last two performers on the HB. Yang scored only 9.475 and Hamm, driven by an urge to make up for his failure on the vault, scored 9.837. The meet was over, and Hamm had won the gold medal.

    The situation here is nothing like what happened at SLC, where the integrity of the judges was in question. The two "A" judges who estimated Yang's SV both made a mistake, and the "A" supervisor didn't catch it (he intervenes only when there is a disagreement between the two judges). Then the "B" judges who scored the performance failed to take a mandatory .2 deduction for an excess stop. The judges were inept, not dishonest. But the SV mistake COULD have been corrected if the Korean coaches had acted immediately, according to the rules. They did not.

  10. #25
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    Good post, Chuckm - After that sensible explanation, I would say:

    That's it!! OVER AND OUT

    Joe

  11. #26
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,356
    Quote Originally Posted by berthes ghost
    the ISU's judge admitted to cheating. The IOC, embarassed by the bad rap the Olys were getting for yet another of the ISU's curruption scandals, told them to sort it out. Why do an investigation into the charges, when the double gold was so much easier and no heads rolled? The judge who admitted to cheating is now running to be head of the powerful French Skating Union. :(
    It was all over the NA that she 'addmitted' cheating. There was difference saying there was pressure from her federation and I cheated voting. If you all believed what she said she was under pressure. Then why don't believe that she also said she voted under her own counciase that Rusian win over at presentation mark from her vote, which was not that far fetched from other judges in the panel who also voted for Rusian win.

    Too much judge controvasy in this Olympics. I tends to agree that they should kick out all the ambigouse judged events out of the Olympics. Just leave those event where time and distance are used to judge a clear cut.

    As for should Paul relinquish the gold. I thought a gold given is given, he has done nothing wrong. But they should made up for Yang. Since it is not the first time duel gold rewarded in Olympics. From other thread, looks both times (synchronize swiming? pair FS?) canadians benefitted for the second Gold medal, why this time don't allow some small country hav the same benefit?
    Last edited by mzheng; 08-25-2004 at 03:30 PM.

  12. #27
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Ohio, USA
    Posts
    2,787
    There is no way that Paul Hamm should give up that gold medal! He did nothing wrong, and none of what happened concerning the failure of the judges to note the differences in the base value assigned to the Korean gymnast should require Hamm to relinquish his fairly won medal. To do so amounts to punishing him for something that clearly wasn't his fault. It's the ineptitude of the judges and the supervisor that is at fault in this mess. They are the ones who should be punished. Severly!

    The other factor in all this is the Koreans knew the rules! Even if some official allegedly told them to hold off on filing their protest, they should have gone ahead and filed it anyway. Then, at least, they would have been able to state they had followed the corrrect procedure for protesting the score. Instead they waffled on the decision to file it, and as a result they share in the complexities of the situation.

    Of course, the media stirred a heaping dose of acid into an already roiling cauldron; they added to the development of this nightmare for Paul Hamm. Why can't the media just report about what happened rather than exacerbating the situation as Christine Brennan has?

  13. #28
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,926
    Quote Originally Posted by berthes ghost
    Again, just to clarify. I think that medal decisions are left up to the individual sports' organizations, and only involve the IOC when they interfer with how the Olys are viewed. I agree with this.

    In SLC, the IOC did NOT give out double gold. That was the brainchild of the ISU. Compelety unlike what happen in Athens, the ISU's judge admitted to cheating. The IOC, embarassed by the bad rap the Olys were getting for yet another of the ISU's curruption scandals, told them to sort it out. Why do an investigation into the charges, when the double gold was so much easier and no heads rolled? The judge who admitted to cheating is now running to be head of the powerful French Skating Union. :(
    Officially the ISU gave the duplicate gold in SLC. However, their hand was forced by the IOC. Initially Cinquanta had said things like the ISU does not change the results of a competition. He said there would be an investigation. However, Dr.Rogge the new IOC president wanted a quick resolution that would please the Americans. He even threatened to cancel the ice dance competition if the problem was not fixed IMMEDIATELY. There was only one solution acceptable to the Americans.... a gold medal for S&P. Whatever Cinquanta may be, in this case I would not place the blame on him. I would place it on Dr.Rogge for not foreseeing how that action might impact future Olympics.

  14. #29
    Custom Woman
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    1,770

    Touché

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Our favorite gal Christine Brennan wrote a big whoop-de-do about why Paul should give his medal to the Korean guy. I think instead that Brennan should win a gold medal and give hers away.
    Mathman,
    That's the best suggestion regarding something Christine Brennan has written I've ever read.
    Rgirl

  15. #30
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Murrysville, PA
    Posts
    219
    The judges made an error in the start value. I read that Yang's coach didn't see it. Don't know why, it was posted for all to see. Maybe he just wasn't paying attention. Proper paperwork was not filed in a timely manner. The judges made a second error. They didn't deduct for the excess stop. If both sets of judges had not made errors, Yang still would not have won the Gold.

    If everyone had done their job properly, Hamm would still be the Olympic Champion. Give up his Gold Metal---most diffinately not. Why should he have to create good will for the Americans. If we are so disliked by the other countries and our athletes can't be treated fairly then maybe the USA should not attend the Olympics. Of course that also goes for our media coverage and all the money the USA generates for the Olympics.

    Mathman, What could Brennan ever win a gold metal for? World's most acid mouth because that is the only thing she is good at doing.

    Ladybug

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Flashback to 1984 Winter Olympics
    By SkateFan4Life in forum 2005-06 Figure Skating archives
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 10-28-2005, 02:56 PM
  2. What Olympic Pressure Will There Be for......
    By Joesitz in forum 2005-06 Figure Skating archives
    Replies: 56
    Last Post: 09-12-2005, 11:59 AM
  3. Paul Hamm Keeps Gold!
    By euterpe in forum 2004-05 Figure Skating archives
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-25-2004, 06:43 AM
  4. Gymnastics officials want Hamm to give up gold
    By Ptichka in forum 2003-04 Figure Skating archives
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 08-28-2004, 09:47 PM
  5. Has the Olympics lost its cachet?
    By mathman444 in forum 2002-03 Figure Skating archives
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 07-02-2003, 02:47 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •