Gymnastics officials want Hamm to give up gold | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Gymnastics officials want Hamm to give up gold

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
mzheng said:
Judge may not feel Yang's hold is more than 2 seconds and warrantee a deduction.
That is true. However, if he didn't hold the move for more than 2 seconds, the move doesn't count towards the difficulty in his start value.

mzheng said:
In mordern gymnastics no body even won a medal with such a mistake.
That mistake had a maximum deduction. Whether there were more deductions that should have been taken, I can't say, because I don't know the entire CoP for gymnastics. But if all of the required deductions were taken -- within the discretionary rules of the CoP -- to say he shouldn't have won on the total score is like saying that a figure skating judge can arbitrarily take a -5 deduction on a fall on a jump combo, even though CoP says the maximum deduction is -3.
 
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BronzeisGolden

Medalist
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
It is simple add 0.1 SV to Yang's routine then Yang's total score higher than Paul's. It is A panel assigne the SV, and both of them addmitted they made mistake before the competetion finished

Not that simple. From what I can tell, the proper procedures were not followed in reporting the mistaken starting value. So, if the FIG chooses to bypass the rule about timely grievances, etc....then they must be open to reassessing the actual performance in question. One without the other would be totally unfair...according to the FIG's own rules.
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
hockeyfan228 said:
That is true. However, if he didn't hold the move for more than 2 seconds, the move doesn't count towards the difficulty in his start value.

That mistake had a maximum deduction. Whether there were more deductions that should have been taken, I can't say, because I don't know the entire CoP for gymnastics. But if all of the required deductions were taken -- within the discretionary rules of the CoP -- to say he shouldn't have won on the total score is like saying that a figure skating judge can arbitrarily take a -5 deduction on a fall on a jump combo, even though CoP says the maximum deduction is -3.

I'm no CoP expert either, but from what you say it was obvious confilict, from NBC commentor there are 3 holds allowed, but in his routine they show in slowmo there were 4 holds, but they diddn't say all of them were hold more than 2 seconds. Thus there must be one holds not exceed 2 seconds, this hold must not affect the SV 10, (I believe the same NBC expert acknowledged several time the routine is SV=10 no doubt about it) that's why B panel judges diddn't take 0.2
deduction. Why would they claim a routine with 4 holds SV=10 then went on deduction 0.2, just conflict.

The fact is the three judges suspended. And it is for a reason. There was no B panel judge got suspended. There was a mistake made by A panel, they addmitted it on spot that day, thus they got suspended. No matter what the NBC try to tangle the whole thing. To most ppl other then NA it was not a conviced win.
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
BronzeisGolden said:
Not that simple. From what I can tell, the proper procedures were not followed in reporting the mistaken starting value. So, if the FIG chooses to bypass the rule about timely grievances, etc....then they must be open to reassessing the actual performance in question. One without the other would be totally unfair...according to the FIG's own rules.

But by suspended 3 A panel judges, who addmitted made the mistake. In the eye's of world, well at least the rest of the world, it was like to say the AA gold medal was rewarded to the wrong person. Is it fair?
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
It's just par for the course at this Olympics. Canada's Kyle Shewfelt - gold medalist in the men's artistic gymnastics, was denied the bronze medal in the vault even though his performance was better than the athlete (Korean I think) who was awarded the medal. Apparantley, Kasamatsu took a couple of hops and fell on his hands at the landing - no deduction! What gives? So much for fair judging.
 

BronzeisGolden

Medalist
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
But by suspended 3 A panel judges, who addmitted made the mistake. In the eye's of world, well at least the rest of the world, it was like to say the AA gold medal was rewarded to the wrong person. Is it fair?

Absolutely not fair. But, my point was....if the whole "starting value" issue wasn't dealt with properly (by either the judges or the Korean officials), then how can possible overlooked deductions in the questioned routine be completely dismissed? That isn't fair. I'm not trying to say Hamm deserved the Gold no matter what just because he is American....I'm saying that the FIG needs to get its s&#t straight. Sure....punish the judges, etc. Make it look good. Then, punish the athlete you "wrongly" awarded Gold and give it to the deserving athlete. And WAIT...then....punish the Korean Silver medalist by awarding his medal to Hamm (the wrongly rewarded Gold medalist). Sorry, it all stinks. They all worked their asses off. They all would have given themselves Gold medals. The fact is: irresponsible FIG sanctioned judges screwed the men's Olmypic AA competition up...they should be the ones taking the heat!
 

JOHIO2

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
Here is an interesting observation: does anyone know if the gymnasts are from North Korea or South Korea or a unified team? Yes, they mached into the stadium together, but are they competing as a single national team? And does it really matter to anyone?

So, just HOW political is this being played? And by whom?

Has absolutely nothing to do with arguments on the merits of the individual gymnasts or routines or judging. Just one of those inquiring minds things. I just want to know. And if it does make a difference to anyone, what is it?
 

tdnuva

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
JOHIO2 said:
Here is an interesting observation: does anyone know if the gymnasts are from North Korea or South Korea or a unified team? Yes, they mached into the stadium together, but are they competing as a single national team? And does it really matter to anyone?

Seems it matters to you? :D

Anyway, I am quite sure I saw PRK as national symbol within the olympics as well as the South Korean flag - so I'd say they make the difference.
 

sk8tngcanuck

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 11, 2003
JOHIO2 said:
Here is an interesting observation: does anyone know if the gymnasts are from North Korea or South Korea or a unified team? Yes, they mached into the stadium together, but are they competing as a single national team? And does it really matter to anyone?

So, just HOW political is this being played? And by whom?

Has absolutely nothing to do with arguments on the merits of the individual gymnasts or routines or judging. Just one of those inquiring minds things. I just want to know. And if it does make a difference to anyone, what is it?


Hi Jo,

Yes they marched as a single unified team, but they are competing as separate nations.

Canuck
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
mzheng said:
I'm no CoP expert either, but from what you say it was obvious confilict, from NBC commentor there are 3 holds allowed, but in his routine they show in slowmo there were 4 holds, but they diddn't say all of them were hold more than 2 seconds. Thus there must be one holds not exceed 2 seconds, this hold must not affect the SV 10, (I believe the same NBC expert acknowledged several time the routine is SV=10 no doubt about it) that's why B panel judges diddn't take 0.2
deduction. Why would they claim a routine with 4 holds SV=10 then went on deduction 0.2, just conflict.

The fact is the three judges suspended. And it is for a reason. There was no B panel judge got suspended. There was a mistake made by A panel, they addmitted it on spot that day, thus they got suspended. No matter what the NBC try to tangle the whole thing. To most ppl other then NA it was not a conviced win.
Tim Daggett did say that there were four holds, each of which exceeded two seconds in a studio replay in real time, not slo mo. That the routine with 4 holds created a start value of 10, but a deduction of .2 can be chalked up to "unexpected results" which is standard for any complex system based on algorithms.

The SVs can be disputed and the A panel judges admitted error. The B panel judges have not admitted error, and the execution marks cannot be disputed. It makes perfect sense that they would not volunteer any info.
 

alicelouise

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Asking Paul Hamm to give up his Gold

:mad: Any one remember Wimbledon this year? Venus Williams had lost a match because the referee called out the incorrect score. Team Williams didn't correct during the match; so it was tough luck. I guess to make things right the Wimbledon Ladies champion should just give it up to Venus...right?

Gymnastics has a similar situation. Team Korea didn't attend to the start value situation during the competition. That Korean gymnast only has himself and his federation to blame.

I am more angry that the FIG and the Koreans are ruining Paul's experience. This should be the best time of his life. I hope he doesn't leave gymnastics.
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
I doubt that he will leave gymnastics. Afterall he has the gold in his pocket. Unless the FIG 'orders' him to give it up, it's his forever. He will make millions in endorsements because of the Olympic gold. The Koreans are only doing what the USOC would have done had the situation been reversed. We are not used to seeing someone fighting back. Most other countries just accept the undesirable results, and let the US rule. I cannot blame the Koreans for doing what they are doing. They too could be watching tapes and criticizing Hamm's unusually high marks on the vault after the fall. As far as I am concerned, once the game is over it is over. That should have applied to the SLC situation too (I know many are going to rake me over the coals for saying this). However, results have been changed in the past in the Olympics (not just SLC pairs), so I don't see why they cannot be changed here.

The fault belongs to the FIG for not being firm on the issue -either change the results, or don't change them. It is ridiculous to ask the athletes to make the decision. I don't see why an athlete would give up his hard earned medal that was given to him by the judges. The FIG needs to make a decision one way or the other, and live with it.
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Vash, most of us have no problem with the Korean federation. We do, however, object to FIG trying to tell Hamm he should give up his medal voluntarily. Like it's the question of a physical medal! FIG is the one that needs to decide if Yang or Hamm is 2004 all around Olympic champion, and it's cowardly to make Hamm decide. Once again, no problem with Koreans here, they are just doing their jobs.
 
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