Are 3-2 combos important at all?

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ApacheApache

Guest

• Apr 8, 2003

• #1

Are 3-2 combos important at all?

It seems to me, the double jump of a 3/2 combo is so easy that I wonder if carries any rechnical merit at all. Also I wonder, since it's so easy and if it is indeed rewarded for technical merit, why don't skaters do 3 or 4 of such combos? This is just my perception of the 3/2 combo based on my observation of Michelle's performances over the years. Correct me if I'm wrong she only fell once on the double jump in the 3lz/2t she did at 1997 Nationals. Lastly, she had had 100% successes with the 3L/2R in the 2002 season, again it seemed so easy. Why doesn't she do the 3/2R combo anymore? How much technical advantage does a 2R have over a 2T in a 3/2 combo? Thanks.

 

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Joesitz

Guest

• Apr 8, 2003

• #2

Re: Are 3-2 combos important at all?

good question, Apache. The 3/2 is basically obsolete, imo, as a technical feat. However I do see it as a part of a musical entity. If, of course, it is done with the music.

Joe

 

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AY2006

Guest

• Apr 8, 2003

• #3

Re: Are 3-2 combos important at all?

It allows a skater to do the same triple jump twice. So it is still important.

I don't know how "easy" it really is. Didn't MK single one of her 2Ts in the qualifying round of this year's Worlds?

 

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Excidra2001

Guest

• Apr 8, 2003

• #4

re:

If the 3/2 was not important, than you wouldn't see it in competition. The 3/2 sets the ladies apart in SP, much like the quad does for the man.
As for Michelle's 3lutz/2loop, she only attempts that combo when she is up against Slutskaya. When she competes against the other ladies she doesn't even bother to attempt the 3lutz/2loop.
I think Kwan knows that Slutskaya is just as good as her and doing the 3lutz/2loop when competing against her will help her win against Slutskaya.

 

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Ladskater

Guest

• Apr 8, 2003

• #5

Re: Are 3-2 combos important at all?

The triple-double combos are just as important as any of the jumps. The skaters can't just perform triple-triples throughout their program, they need variety! They might not be marked as high as on a triple-triple, but the jump still counts.

Ladskater

 

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BronzeisGolden02

Guest

• Apr 8, 2003

• #6

3/2s

I agree with everyone so far. They may not be the most exciting or raved about element, but they are difficult and well respected by the judges (especially 3lz/2t). We are spoiled by technical advances and marvels like the 3/3 and I think sometimes it is really difficult to truly appreciate the level of skill it takes to land a clean 3/2. You might not win with 3/2s only, but you certainly won't be in good stead with none at all. The last champion I can remember that had serious problems with 3/2s was Oksana. In her free skate from 92-93, 93-94 she didn't attempt one, although she did do a 2a/2t and that is difficult, but not comparable to a 3/2. That's really the only criticism I had for her 1994 Olympic free skate. No 3/2 and the 2a/2t wasn't solid.

 

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DORISPULASKI

Guest

• Apr 9, 2003

• #7

Re: 3/2s

Being able to put a 2t or 2r on the end of a triple does 3 things:
1. Shows the security of the landing edge on the triple.
2. (As per previous poster) allows the skater to repeat a
the triple jump in the program per the Zayak rule
3. A combination is a requirement in both the SP and the LP.
A 3/2 meets this requirement in both places. Lack of a combination is a deduction, If I recall, even in the long. That's why Oksana threw in the 2A/2t-she needed it.

And yes, Michelle's 3toe at Nat's in the QR had a landing edge that was insecure enough that she couldn't get a 2toe on it and had only a kind of wonky 1 toe.

dpp

 

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ApacheApache

Guest

• Apr 9, 2003

• #8

Re: 3/2s

Thanks guys, now I have a better understanding of the 3/2 combo. However I'm still wondering how much higher a 3/2 is rewarded compared to just the lone 3 jump in an lp competition? 0.1? 0.2? Can I safely presume most elite skaters have hardly fallen on a 3/2 combo (especially the 3/2t) unless they have troubles with the first 3-jump which is besides the point. And if 3/2 combos are rewarded say, 0.2 point higher than the solo triple of the same jump, isn't it worth churning out as many 3/2s as possible to get higher technical marks? So far none have ever landed 4 3/2s, correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe they are really useless in terms of technical merit and are just functional as Dorispulaski has mentioned.

 

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Mathman3

Guest

• Apr 9, 2003

• #9

Re: 3/2s

Apache, that was an interesting post. Because with the new judging system for next year, the ISU will have to decide exactly that -- how many points to award for various triple-double combinations in comparison with other elements. It will be great fun, and I'm sure that there will be a lot on controversy and arguments about it.

Mathman

 

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DORISPULASKI

Guest

• Apr 9, 2003

• #10

Re: 3/2s

The max. number of combos (of all sorts) allowed in the LP is 3. Which is why there are aren't 4 done. There is some discussion that the Code of Points for next year is only going to allow 1 combo and 1 sequence, or some such. Then the question comes up is Plushenko's 4t353loop a sequence of a combo. Supposedly people have been assured it will be allowed one way or the other.

dpp

 

J

Joesitz

Guest

• Apr 9, 2003

• #11

Re: 3/2s

Doris - If that ruling comes through, Plush will still be right up their with his triples which are high and exact!

But what will it do for the ladies? Presentation will be crucial in determining the final mark. For that matter, the men too.

Joe

 

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engrsktr

Guest

• Apr 9, 2003

• #12

Re: 3/2s

here is my take on it....

the 3/2 is important more so for being able to repeat a triple and as an actual requirement in the SP (if you want to be IN the compeition), as was stated previously.
And it will be important for the number of combinations to be limited by the governing body concerned because the 3/2 purely technically speaking, isn't the most difficult of feats - sometimes it gets to be so routine that some skaters can't comfortably perform the triple alone! and having a skater flying around doing the same "type" of combination over and over isn't technically or artistically stunning.....
but the difference in scoring for the 3/3 vs the 3/2 should be rather substantial in my opinion... most of these elite skaters were doing double double combos when they were like 10! so adding that same double onto a triple isn't a huge adjustment as far as the "feeling" of the combination goes for them. ( the triple is of course much more difficult... but the latter part of the combo is something that is still familiar).
adding a triple onto that first triple is a substantial difference and should be duly rewarded (considering quality and all that)...
And this is in fact where the 3/3 comes into play. with limited numbers of combinations available, technically speaking, the 3/3 sets some skaters apart from the rest (of course if done confidently and surely).

 

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Joesitz

Guest

• Apr 9, 2003

• #13

Re: 3/2s

Good points Engrskte!

Joe

 

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ApacheApache

Guest

• Apr 9, 2003

• #14

Re: 3/2s

Thanks Engrsktr, but how is a 3/2 compared to a 3-jump in terms of technical merit? Am I right to say skaters put up 3/2s so they can repeat another triple and it's solely for that reason?

Dorispulaski, doesn't Zayak rule apply to 3/3's not 3/2s? I read somewhere you can do as many 3/2s as you want to.

 

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DORISPULASKI

Guest

• Apr 10, 2003

• #15

Re: 3/2s

The Zayak rule is that I can do a second triple or quadruple jump, say a triple lutz for an example, only if one of the two lutzes is in combination (and I believe, you can repeat if it isn't in the same combination. That is, you can do a 3f/3t and a 3lutz/3t in the same program and not have violated the Zayak rule on the 3toe.

So I can't do a 3lutz at the beginning and a 3lutz at the end, but I'm OK if one of them is a 3lutz2toe or other combination.

At this point, a quad toe is treated as a completely different jump than a 3toe, or else Plush's 4t/3t/3loop and 4t by itself would be a violation (and it isn't). Also Goebel's 4s/3t, 4t, and 3a/3t would be a violation (and it isn't).

dpp

dpp

 

J

Joesitz

Guest

• Apr 10, 2003

• #16

Re: 3/2s

Doris - What if you do a 3 Flutz/3 toe and 3 Flip/3 toe. Isn't it the same thing? Will judges catch that. Is if fair if they catch it on one skater and not another?

I would like the referee and the assistant referee, judge the lutz as to whether it is true or not. They can have a special video near them to check it out. The announcement should be made for the whole arena, so that the spectators and judges hear it.

Joe

 

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engrsktr

Guest

• Apr 10, 2003

• #17

Re: 3/2s

"Thanks Engrsktr, but how is a 3/2 compared to a 3-jump in terms of technical merit? Am I right to say skaters put up 3/2s so they can repeat another triple and it's solely for that reason? "

Well the 3/2 is given a small bonus... it's hard to say how it is judged exactly.... purely technically speaking, to me it would be like a double quality point.... let's say a single triple jump was done VERY well... the skater would get the full value of the jump and a little "bonus" for the quality.... adding a double onto that would be like adding that little extra AGAIN... so it's like double quality points... it won't make or break a technical mark but it can make a difference (to put one skater over the top) if two skaters are very similar in their technical skating...

And yes, basically the double on the end is primarily used in order to repeat a more difficult triple so that the base score can be raised... most skaters if you notice only do one 3/2/ combo and it's usually the 3lutz/3toe combo so that that lutz can be repeated again thereby gaining the maximum amount of points...

however, I don't believe in the case of the flutz that the referee needs to monitor the lutz jump so closely... a judge should be able to see the edge clearly enough simply by the body position, the bend in the knee at the takeoff, and a number of other factors that are telltale signs...

 

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Kasey

Guest

• Apr 11, 2003

• #18

Hmmmm

I'm not a figure skater, by any means...so in my limited knowledge, any two jump combination would have to be more difficult, notably more difficult. But yeah, with the proliferation of 3/2 combos, you would think they are becoming passe. I wish there would be more combos in ladies skating....you normally see a 3l/2t or a triple/triple, and then all the rest are single jumps....
Kasey

 

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ApacheApache

Guest

• Apr 13, 2003

• #19

The Zayak Rule

Doris, but the Zayak rule doesn't prohibit the number of 3/2 combos a skater can do, so he/she can have the following layout of jumps:

3z/2t
3l/2t
3s/2t
3f/2t
3t/2t
3z or 3z/2t
3t or 3t/2t

can't he/she?

My whole point is, since it's easy to tag the 2t and it's rewarded a little bit higher than the solo triple jump, why don't skaters just churn out as many 3/2s as possible to maximise the tech marks? ...unless it's true that the 3/2 combo can disrupt the rhythm of a triple jump as some posters mentioned or it's really not worth putting in that extra effort for a meagre extra tech mark.

 

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mzheng

Record Breaker

• 
• 

Joined

Jan 16, 2005

• Apr 13, 2003

• #20

Re: The Zayak Rule

You are only allowed 3 comb or sequences in LP. So you can't do all those comb in one LP.

IMO, a 3/2 still marked higher techniquely than a single 3. That's why Sasha did 3 3/2 in her QR (Since she can't consistantly landed 3z/3t) to boost her TM.

I read somewhere in other board that one of the reason Sasha placed behind both ES and MK with an almost clean 7triples was judges bothered by her probably violating the Zayak rules (3flutz/2t, 3flutz, 3flip/2t?) . You can't really tell what she is attempting lutz or flip. Since she use the same entry technique to do both jumps, stay on flat until last min switch to inside edge then pick in. So you can't tell what she is attempting.

For Sarah, it is different, she approch with outside edge after she switch to the right foot, then before pick in she switch to inside edge a good a few feet before she left the ice. So at least judge can tell she is attempt a lutz became a flutz.

Actually a few years back after Sarah first hit the scene she was critisized flutz, then Robin instead of correcting just change the entry to disguise the entry edge. IMO, Robin may not be a technique coach (Sarah's many flawed technique is the prove) but she is a good chroegrapher for Sarah. A lot of her chroegraph hide Sarah's weakness well.