Mathman, I have a question. . .

Mathman, I have a question. . .

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>We haven't had a good old 300 post thread about why I hate/love Michelle for, oh, three or four weeks now. [/quote]

What is it about Michelle that brings about such intense emotions? I'm not talking about <em>why</em> we hate/love her. Why do we go nuts because we think someone is maligning her? Why do we go crazy because someone is gushing?

I would like anyone's opinion. I pointed it to Mathman because even though he is a huge Michelle fan, as I am, he always seems to be objective.

Re: Mathman, I have a question. . .

Hi, Pookie.

Gosh, I don't think I'm the right person to ask about this. I gush about Michelle; I go nuts when people malign her (but I try to go nuts in a nice way).

But I'm glad you asked because I was thinking about saying something about that on the thread entitled, "Objectively Speaking." And what I was going to say is, I wonder if everybody appreciated the irony -- whether intended or not -- in that title. When Michelle comes in the door, objectivity flies out the window.

At your invitation, I will think about this. For myself, I have no rational explanation for why Michelle Kwan, a person whom I have never met, seems like a daughter to me. She just does.

I first started following Michelle's career in 1998, some time after the Olympics, when I was coping with a personal tragedy and a loss which threatened to overwhelm me. Michelle -- she was doing East of Eden then on the pro-am circuit -- brought a beauty and a new hope into my life at a time when I most needed it. She was -- and is -- so alive.

How's that for "objective?" :lol:

Well, that's probably not the kind of answer that you expected. And it can't be the case that 10,000,000 other people had the same kind of cathartic experience with Michelle wrapped up in it. So, as I say, I'll think about it. In the meantime I'm sure that other people will have a more objective take on this question than I do.

Mathman

Re: Mathman, I have a question. . .

well it's me again....

here's an attempt at answering that question.....
Those who gush about michelle do so because of some connection they feel for her..... just as her opponents malign her because they either have this affinity for someone else or there is something there that they just don't like for some personal reason....

the title of the thread I started isn't ironic for me because I was speaking objectively. I was looking at the barebones....
there were some fans on there on the other hand that did not...
it's not just michelle that I could have talked about... but that's just the most recognizable of the group....
if anyone wants to talk about someone else they should feel free.... I never meant to squash the conversation to michelle

Re: Mathman, I have a question. . .

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Why do we go nuts because we think someone is maligning her? Why do we go crazy because someone is gushing?[/quote] That has nothing do to with Michelle (or any other skater) herself, but much with our feelings. If we like someone we don't like to see them hurt/badly talked about, etc. In a way, it hurts us too. Gushing can get on our nerves, I guess, if we don't share the feeling. Well, it can even if we do share the feeling, lol.

Personally I don't like mindless and/or excessive gushing. S/he just had a helluva of a skate - yes. S/he just winked, sneezed, hallelujah! - no. If someone gushes *all the time* it does get old. I don't like idolizing (or should I say idealizing) people to the point of no longer being human. If you lose perspective it's no good. That's why I appreciate comments from people who try to be reasonable, be them in favor of my favorite skaters or not.

What's much worse than excessive gushing, though, is hatred that some people seem to harbor for rivals (especially the main one) of their "precious one". They won't miss any occasion to say something bad about them, etc., as if they were on a mission or something. Well, they probably are, lol. Sometimes they make it hard to enjoy the boards, especially when they come in herds, like they usually do. Any opposition just fuels the group think, so the best way to deal with it is to wait it out, and if someone's interested in psychology they'll find those situations useful (fascinating even) despite them being dreadfully boring and repetitive.

my perspective

Many people love Michelle for her skating, period. And that's fine. (Some people hate her skating. And that's fine too, although I wholeheartedly disagree.)

However, I think with Michelle it goes beyond the skating itself, and here's my thoughts on why:

1) Many people (if not all) can relate to failure/disappointment. I don't consider her career to be a failure by any means just because she didn't win Olympic gold, but some people would say that it is, and who knows, maybe she does too. (I doubt it, but since I obviously don't know her personally, I have no idea.) In both 1998 and 2002, the Olympic gold was viewed has hers to win, but she didn't. Some, particularly in 1998, would argue that she was robbed. I can definitely point to situations in my own life when I felt that I was robbed of what I felt was rightfully mine. I have also been in situations where I lost out to an "upstart." I remember being hurt, upset, angry, etc. to not achieve or be rewarded after countless hours, months, years, etc. of hard work. No, I was not going for Olympic gold, but I think that the sense of disappointment/failure is fairly universal. Thus, I love seeing Michelle bounce back and stay dedicated to what she truly loves. It's inspirational to me and to many others.

2) Michelle is not only a hard worker but a good person with strong values. To be able to keep your head held high and be nice to others in the midst of extreme pressure is truly amazing. I am tired of "nice guys finishing last." Yes, there are many people who are great athletes. But there are few who I would really look at as a good role model.

On a related note, I think that many feel a kinship to Michelle because many people have also been in situations where they have been "the nice one" only to lose out to someone less nice. For whatever reason, Tara comes across to many people as a less nice person, perhaps a bit spoiled and cocky. She may in fact be very nice, but this is just what comes across. But my point is, I think that this contrast made many people gravitate towards Michelle in 1998. I don't think people felt this same type of contrast between Michelle and Sarah, but I don't think that people like "upstarts" as much. In part this is because the viewing public needs time to get to know an athlete, and we've had several years to get to know Michelle. But at the same time, on a personal level, I like seeing people work and battle it out over time to achieve their ultimate goal. I'm not saying that Sarah didn't work or earn her title fair and square, but she didn't take the typical step-by-step route. Most people in life have to take the slow and steady traditional paths in achieving their goals, and so it's hard for me to relate to someone who just swooped in and achieved greatness so quickly.

Re: my perspective

WindSpirit,
That was a well written post. It echoed many of the thoughts I was thinking. Thank you.

Re: Mathman, I have a question. . .

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>That has nothing do to with Michelle (or any other skater) herself, but much with our feelings. If we like someone we don't like to see them hurt/badly talked about, etc. In a way, it hurts us too.[/quote] ITA, Windspirit. Great post.

I would only like to speak up for the one unrepresented group thus far: those fans who feel neutral about Michelle, or, in other words, they like some things about her skating, dislike others. I bring it up only to point out that there are not just two categories here, love and hate. There is indeed a whole middle ground of people who like Michelle and may even love certain aspects of her skating. Some, like me, may have gone from feeling neutral about Michelle's skating to really liking it since the changes seen Nats and Worlds. But they have no problem criticizing those aspects of her skating they feel are weak. These people may indeed have this same approach with every skater, being more interested in great performances than getting attached to a particular skater. Not that one approach is better than the other; they're just different--different kinds of human nature.

Still I know it's difficult for me to relate to people who love Michelle to the point of near worship or to those people who hate her to the point of wanting something bad to happen to Michelle or her fans. When I step away from it, like Windspirit said, it's interesting psychologically. But when you're in the midst of a forum discussion, and I can only speak for myself, my reactions to the extreme extremists (and really there is nobody on GS who falls into either category), it still boggles my mind that people would invest so much emotion, positive or negative, into someone they don't even know and even more boggling are those who are obsessed with hating people they perceive as being "against" Michelle or vice versa, ie, those who don't like/hate Michelle and are obsessed with hating her fans. The same could apply to other skaters as well.

In general, I think we tend to look for people who do very well and are very successful and by aligning ourselves with that person, we too feel successful. Basically, living vicariously.

But to reiterate, it is possible to just like Michelle, or any skater
Rgirl EDB

Re: Mathman, I have a question. . .

Thank you all for the great answers. I wish I put together thoughtful posts like you all do. I just tend to ramble on. Anyway, here’s my rambling.

Mathman, I appreciate you sharing these feelings. When I was watching exhibitions the other day, Peggy did her usual gushing intro. As much as I love Michelle, I feel uncomfortable with the “taking us to a higher plain, making us forget the world’s troubles . . .. “ things she says. Michelle gives me goosebumps, brings tears to my eyes and other emotions but I usually find these statements too much like “putting on a pedestal”. And I think it makes Non-Kwans just that much more Non. (I know my husband will snicker and roll his eyes and he hates skating anyway. :lol: ) Well, what you have just said in your post, apparently people do find comfort in her skating. I think that’s a wonderful thing. I’m sure that any skater feel very proud that their skating has that effect on people.

Although I don’t think of myself as a rabid dog where Michelle is concerned, I do get a little offended when people imply that she hasn’t earned her position in the figure skating world. I am not a skater so I cannot argue the technical side of skating. If something in shown in slow motion, I can see where the difference is in edges and why one jump is better than another. I, of course, know a beautiful position when I see one so it’s an emotional connection for me and not a technical one like another skater would have.

I do have a problem with people idealizing or idolizing also. You know, Michelle probably has bad moods and maybe even yells at people sometimes. Maybe the Kwaniacs and Non-Kwans have trouble keeping it all in perspective. Michelle is a person. She’s not perfect. But neither is Sasha, Sarah, Fumie, Irina . . . . Figure skating is a sport. It’s not the most important thing in life.

I think I may be a recovering Kwaniac. I was very upset when Tara won in Nagano. I held it against Tara personally. I’m certainly old enough and smart enough to know better. How silly of me to have such personal feelings against a child and one I don’t even know! I wasn’t much happier when Sarah won in SLC but at least there was a definitive better skate. So maybe I’m maturing and learning how to handle the intense emotion Michelle brings to figure skating. :lol:

Thankfully, there are some neutral people like rgirl who try to bring all of us back to center.

Re: Mathman, I have a question. . .

RGirl, I feel exactly like you do.

Re: Mathman, I have a question. . .

Kara Bear and Rgirl, thanks. 8o

Rgirl, I too feel neutral about Michelle. Like I once wrote "I don't seek her out", but I'll watch her with interest if she's skating in a competiton/show I'm watching on TV or attending live. She did put a tear in my eye when I saw her at Nationals. But still I like other skaters much more.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Still I know it's difficult for me to relate to people who love Michelle to the point of near worship or to those people who hate her to the point of wanting something bad to happen to Michelle or her fans.[/quote] Same here, but again it's difficult for me to relate to people who love <em>my</em> favorite skaters to the point worship too. Funny thing is they're often the same bunch that hate their idol's rival with a vengeance. No wonder I can't relate.

Pookie, kudos to you for an introspective post. I guess we all get carried away sometimes, but as long as we realize that it's not so bad.

Pookie

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think I may be a recovering Kwaniac[/quote]

LOL, so Kwaniac is a disease state? I am glad you are in recovery. this sounds like group therapy. LOL

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I do have a problem with people idealizing or idolizing also. You know, Michelle probably has bad moods and maybe even yells at people sometimes[/quote]

Here goes my psychobabble. People who idealize also devaluate. I have to add to windspirit's observation, the devaluation is not necessarily targeted towards the rivals of the idealized. Often the object of idealization and devaluation is the same ie someone may idealize skater A yesterday and devaluates skater A today.

Michelle is human ITA. From reading GS, I do not get the impression that people here are worshipping or idealizing her. I haven't seen anyone here who seriously believe that Michelle is perfect.

Re: Mathman, I have a question. . .

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Same here, but again it's difficult for me to relate to people who love my favorite skaters to the point worship too. Funny thing is they're often the same bunch that hate their idol's rival with a vengeance. No wonder I can't relate.[/quote] Although I don't really have a favorite skater, ITA, Windspirit. Of course I like some skaters better than others based on styles and skating strengths, but in any case I think it's a great point. It's not just about the way Michelle's fans feel about her or the way "Anti-Kwans" hate her; it's also about the way fans of any skater behave in terms of loving their favorite or hating other skaters or fans of other skaters.

BTW, when people talk about "non-Kwans," it seems that some mean fans who hate Michelle and others mean fans for whom Michelle is not their favorite but have nothing against her. I've called myself a "nonKwan" fan before meaning that she wasn't my favorite skater, but I've never hated her or felt anything even in the same galaxy as hatred. If people are talking about Kwan haters, they might want to think about using "anti-Kwans" or "Kwan haters" instead of "non-Kwans." Same goes for identifying fans of any skater. Just a suggestion.

Also, Pookie I agree with you re Peggy Fleming and some of the things she says, such as "Michelle makes us forget about the problems in the World." It does get to be a bit much and there are so many other great things to say about Michelle without getting into that kind of hyperbole, IMO. Also, other skaters at Worlds had amazing performances; in fact, if I had to rate them, I'd put Shen and Zhao's LP above everybody else's in any discipline. Plus, IMO, watching any sport you love, listening to music, reading great books, movies, going to a museum, participating in a sport, etc. can make you forget about the problems of life--at least temporarily. I don't mean to get down on Peggy and I understand that this is par for the course in sports talk; commentators do the same thing with other sports stars. I just know what you mean.

Interesting posts from all.
Rgirl

Re: Mathman, I have a question. . .

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I do not get the impression that people here are worshipping or idealizing her. I haven't seen anyone here who seriously believe that Michelle is perfect. [/quote]
I really don’t think so either. I didn’t mean to leave that impression.
All I meant was all we see the public image. That doesn’t mean Michelle isn’t a nice person in real life because I’m sure she is. A person can’t hide a perpetual bad attitude.

Maybe I’m just worrying about all this too much. Maybe she is perfect and my husband is brain-washing me and I do need therapy! He’s probably just trying to find a way to make me quit watching figure skating! Maybe being a Kwaniac is a disease! :lol:

Re: Mathman, I have a question. . .

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Quote:
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I do not get the impression that people here are worshipping or idealizing her. I haven't seen anyone here who seriously believe that Michelle is perfect.
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I really don’t think so either. I didn’t mean to leave that impression.[/quote] Pookie, I don't think you left that impression at all. I think you just love Michelle's skating and Michelle as a role model and sports figure. I would venture a guess that your husband has similar feelings for some sports figure or celebrity. Or maybe your husband is a bit jealous? When I was staying with my sister for a while, we enjoyed watching figure skating together. Whenever we did, her husband would do anything he could to distract us. Like an annoying little brother, he would flick the lights on and off, say "Hey, look over here!" etc. It was as if he was jealous of my sister's and my connection through watching figure skating, something that made him feel left out or not getting enough attention. I think you're a happy, friendly, positive Kwaniac. IMO, there is not the tiniest thing wrong with that. And if some people think there is, well, as the song says, "If loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right."
Rgirl

Re: Mathman, I have a question. . .

Thank you, rgirl. I feel almost normal again. :lol:

Re: Mathman, I have a question. . .

Is Peggy Fleming's comment,"Michelle's skating makes us forget the worlds trouble for a few minutes," really so far out of line? That's exactly how I feel. For four minutes I'm not thinking about the war in Iraq or anything else except - wow, just look at her!

Providing this momentary escape from reality is the heart and purpose of all sports and entertainment. And figure skating takes it one step further. We may like Tiger Woods and respect Michael Jordan, but Michelle takes us into a magical world where everything is full of wonder and as beautiful as she.

Do you know the song, "Everything is beautiful at the ballet," from Chorus Line? Three dancers recalling what they first loved about their art as young girls. One had an unhappy home life, another thought she was ugly, a third longed for the love of her father - she had a fantasy of a tall, strong Indian chief who would ask her to dance: "I would love to."

They escaped into their fantasy world where Everything was Beautiful - at the Ballet.

So Michelle is like that when she skates.

Mathman

Re: Mathman, I have a question. . .

Mathman,

I think, for me, it's more of a personal thing. I have a "keep sports and sports figures in perspective" thing for myself. So while that is certainly not an over the top statement for most people, I personally am a little uncomfortable with it. If someone has those feelings, great.

I'm not even going to say I haven't felt that way. :lol: I just haven't thought about it like that.

Re: Mathman, I have a question. . .

Ballerinas get better with age; Actors get better with age; tennis players get better with age, etc.

Why or why can't a figure skater and why can't we still love those figure skaters?

Joe

Re: Mathman, I have a question. . .

Pookie, I have one more thing to say about why I like Michelle. When Michelle skates, there may be 20,000 people in the audience and a million more at home watching on TV. But somehow, Michelle has the knack of seeming to speak to each person alone. To me, she says something like this:

Hey, Mathman!

Grab your coat!

Don't forget your hat!

Leave your worries on the doorstep.

Now, direct your feet...

...to the sunny side of the street!

MM

LOL

Does MK ever tell you which stock to pick? Does she ever give you ideas for your next research project. Maybe you don't need ideas for research projects, it must be nice to be a tenure full prof.

<span style="color:red;font-size:medium;">Congrats Michelle, Elena, and Fumie</span>