My Scratch Spins Are Garbage, Help!

So I'm at the end of my rope on my scratch spin and hoping some of y'all have some advice. For context, I'm 33. I used to skate in high school, but quit, and I've been back at it about 7 months now. A lot of things have come back to me pretty easily, and I have moved into working on my single jumps without much trouble. But my forward scratch spin is another story entirely. I've been working on them for several months now, and I would swear they're getting worse not better.

My coach is working with me on them, of course, and I have asked my group lesson instructor, a couple of other coaches, and fellow skaters. All have given me good advice and different ways of looking at it, but it still has not "clicked" with me.

Some of my problems:

- The entire entry from back crossovers is just not good. I am getting more comfortable with the wind up on the RBI edge. I've been told to check harder to the outside and that has made a difference. The edge still doesn't feel entirely comfortable, but it's better. I have also improved on stepping back into the circle and not stepping wide. I'm still having trouble with scraping/stopping on my toe pick before stepping onto the left, but it's better than it was.

- But then comes the LFO edge. Almost every time the LFO edge into the hook (if we can even call it that) just feels ... wrong. Nothing about this movement feels secure or "right" in my body. I have no problems with LFO edges or three turns generally. It's only in the spin entry that I have a problem. I have tried and tried to get the "half heart" shape but it just doesn't seem to happen. I try to "wait longer" before beginning the spin, but it doesn't work. I know I'm rushing the hook, but when I try to hold the edge longer, I end up skidding.

- Once I enter the spin, I am almost always too far forward on the toe pick. I've been told to keep my knee a bit bent rather than straightening up and that this will help me get onto the correct place on the rocker, but more often than not, this actually makes the toe pick problem worse.

- Traveling. Lots of traveling.

- Many times I will just lose the spin and will go into a much wider circle on the inside edge until I just fall over basically. I assume this means I'm not centered over my skating leg, but I don't know how to fix it.

I've tried everything to improve my general posture, like envisioning a string lifting me up from the ceiling, relaxing my shoulders, all that. But it doesn't seem to make a difference to the end result.

Anyway, I know that spins take time, and I don't mind working hard on skills, but right now I feel like I'm not making any progress, and may just be making it worse by doing it wrong a million times. And my coach wants me to have not only a good scratch spin but also a change foot spin by the time I compete at the end of September. So any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Are you perhaps able to post a video?

I'm having a little trouble with this line:

"The entire entry from back crossovers is just not good. I am getting more comfortable with the wind up on the RBI edge. I've been told to check harder to the outside and that has made a difference. The edge still doesn't feel entirely comfortable, but it's better. I have also improved on stepping back into the circle and not stepping wide. I'm still having trouble with scraping/stopping on my toe pick before stepping onto the left, but it's better than it was."

I've not thought about checking hard to the outside as when I go into a spin. I think of stepping into the circle - which you mention - and getting to the balance point on my blade with my body in a good position.
The line I bolded makes me think you're pulling yourself off balance.

Here's a link to a prior thread that gave some good discussion on spinning:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?59899-Trouble-centering-scratch-spins

It sounds like you're getting good advice, so I just want to add that to do a centered, fast, scratch spin is not so easy. It took me forever too. I had a (not clean) axel, and decent backspin, sit and camel spins before I was able to reliably do an upright front scratch spin.

I think you'll get it more time and practice. Can you do good left forward edge pulls? It might help with that feeling of deepening the outside edge. Are you having problems with your other spins also? If so maybe you could consider getting new blades with different rockers.

I share your frustration. There are so many variables. One bit of advice: Have your coach and skate tech check the blade mounting on your spinning foot. I've played around with the position and angular alignment. A couple of weeks ago, I finally seemed to hit the right combo. My spin still needs a lot of work, but I've made more progress in last couple of weeks than I've made in the whole year before.

The answer might be in the entry curve of your spin: It needs to be a curve in which the calibre lessens as it goes into the three turn.

Also your spin may be travelling for many reasons: Your entry edge might be too shallow, you might be trying to spin too soon before your entry edge has diminished properly, or you may be allowing your free leg to swing before the point right before your three turn. Centering for you might come down to making sure your hips are level etc...
I agree with the others at your rink telling you to make sure you check hard/strongly, this is very important to get the force and rotation. Good luck!

ifshehadwings said:

- But then comes the LFO edge. Almost every time the LFO edge into the hook (if we can even call it that) just feels ... wrong. Nothing about this movement feels secure or "right" in my body. I have no problems with LFO edges or three turns generally. It's only in the spin entry that I have a problem. I have tried and tried to get the "half heart" shape but it just doesn't seem to happen. I try to "wait longer" before beginning the spin, but it doesn't work. I know I'm rushing the hook, but when I try to hold the edge longer, I end up skidding.

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Skidding is a tell-tale sign that you are releasing your shoulders too early. You need to keep your shoulders strongly in position (rotated with left shoulders front, right back) on the entire LFO entry, and release it only when you rise into the spin.

When you say "wait longer", it sounds like you are just passively waiting for the spin to happen. It will not just magically fall out of the sky! As jf12 alluded to, your entry edge must be an *active* edge, similar to how power pulls involve active edge work. This also applies to the RBI wind-up edge: if it's an active edge, you won't be scrapping your toe pick on it.

Rather than boxing yourself into the "hold it longer" or "make it shorter" or "make it deeper" or "bend more" or "make this kind of tracing" mindset, try focusing on your own body awareness and muscular feedback, e.g., does it feel like I have attained an axis when I rise into the spin? Do I feel my FO edge is helping to generate torque for the spin? Bending more or holding a longer/shorter/deeper edge or making a certain tracing may be things your coach may get you to try, but its purpose is to help your body figure out the mechanics of executing the spin. More than just following instructions, your goal should be acquiring a motor skill. Since you say your spin doesn't "feel right", you already have some awareness of this, which is a good first step.

BTW, depending on how you do your FO3, it may not be helpful to associate a spin entry with a FO3. You want to be moving along a trajectory for a 3-turn, but you want to be centered at one spot for a spin. If you a spin like a 3-turn, obviously you'll end up traveling.

- Once I enter the spin, I am almost always too far forward on the toe pick. I've been told to keep my knee a bit bent rather than straightening up and that this will help me get onto the correct place on the rocker, but more often than not, this actually makes the toe pick problem worse.

- Many times I will just lose the spin and will go into a much wider circle on the inside edge until I just fall over basically. I assume this means I'm not centered over my skating leg, but I don't know how to fix it.

Click to expand...

Do you feel like you are rocking forward and backward on your blade, causing you to go on the toepick and then rock back down and falling? You will make large loose circles if you're too far back on your blade. If you video yourself, you'll be able to calibrate how you feel with what it looks.

Regarding a bent spinning leg, I've heard some skaters make claims about it, but I'm not convinced that it's a fundamental technique, rather that its than an individual's adaptation of the spin to his/her physical body. Every skater's body is different, and it may work for some but not others. Maybe other commentors can weigh in on this. Personally, what worked for me is to squeeze my butt under me (I tend to stick my butt out and break at the waist) and push my hips ever so slightly towards 11 o'clock, putting my center of mass squarely over my spinning sweet spot.

If I had a dollar for every uncentered scratch spin I've ever done I'd have a lot of money!

As others have said it sounds like the entrance might be your problem. What does the tracing on the ice look like? Have you tried it from other entrances like from a forward inside 3 turn?

How can someone do a scratch spin from a FI 3?

I can't remember ever doing a long FOE when I learned to do scratch spins, but is was decades ago, with many years of not skating. I just step forward and snap. I see people just learning spins doing the long edge all the time, and I can't even fathom the idea of me being able to start spinning with a long edge first. I think when I was a kid I was spinning a long time before I even knew the first turn is a 3 turn. Maybe that is what happens when kids learn by doing what they see, without thinking through the mechanics of what they are doing. When I look at my tracing, I expect to see a bunch of circles on top of the 3, because if I can see the 3 completely separate from the first circle, it means I was not centered (sometimes of course spins that start off unentered can be recovered into being centered).

Here's a diagram to what I was describing above in post #5

http://imgur.com/8kGuENJ

treesprite said:

How can someone do a scratch spin from a FI 3?

I can't remember ever doing a long FOE when I learned to do scratch spins, but is was decades ago, with many years of not skating. I just step forward and snap. I see people just learning spins doing the long edge all the time, and I can't even fathom the idea of me being able to start spinning with a long edge first. I think when I was a kid I was spinning a long time before I even knew the first turn is a 3 turn. Maybe that is what happens when kids learn by doing what they see, without thinking through the mechanics of what they are doing. When I look at my tracing, I expect to see a bunch of circles on top of the 3, because if I can see the 3 completely separate from the first circle, it means I was not centered (sometimes of course spins that start off unentered can be recovered into being centered).

Click to expand...

I think Seren means right forward inside three and then step forward onto the left forward outside edge. Different entrances can make it easier to step on the outside edge. However, for people who can't center at all, I recommend starting from a standstill. The longer hold on the forward outside edge for learning purposes is to allow the edge pressure to put you into the spin - when you get better you can do that same edge with more speed. Especially for spins like camel, it's important to learn to hold that edge long enough.

treesprite said:

How can someone do a scratch spin from a FI 3?

Click to expand...

Instead of backward crossovers and stepping onto the FO entry edge from a RBI edge, you do a RFI3 and from the RBO you step onto the FO entry edge.

I think the FI3 is harder for learning, because it's trickier to check the shoulders stepping onto the FO entry edge from the RBO, as compared to from the RBI crossover. On the other hand, once you've mastered the spin, it's much quicker to setup, making it easier to fit into programs that are jam packed with elements.

So is it like doing a back mohawk?

treesprite said:

So is it like doing a back mohawk?

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Technically speaking, yes. But I doubt anyone ever thinks in technical jargon when stepping into a spin. After all, no one thinks of the back crossovers entry setup as a back choctaw, right?

I've seen and heard people refer to the choctaw numerous times.

Now I want to try to spin from a back mohawk. Next time I skate, I will try to remember to try it.

treesprite said:

I've seen and heard people refer to the choctaw numerous times.

Now I want to try to spin from a back mohawk. Next time I skate, I will try to remember to try it.

Click to expand...

Sure, if you prefer to think of those as cboctaws or mohwaks, I'd suggest you do what's comfortable for you. My only caution is, often, turns done in a MITF style is different in technique from those done for a freeskate element.

ETA: I say this also from personal experience. Before I had a coach who taught me the proper way of doing the FI3 entry, I experimented with it myself and initially liked it (novelty always makes things seem better), but in the long run it messed up my entry edge and timing.

jf12 said:

I think Seren means right forward inside three and then step forward onto the left forward outside edge. Different entrances can make it easier to step on the outside edge. However, for people who can't center at all, I recommend starting from a standstill. The longer hold on the forward outside edge for learning purposes is to allow the edge pressure to put you into the spin - when you get better you can do that same edge with more speed. Especially for spins like camel, it's important to learn to hold that edge long enough.

Click to expand...

That's correct- I should have been more specific.

Initially it is a harder start- I have found weirdly enough that it is easier for me to center specific spins from the FI3, LFO entrance, namely the broken leg or layback. I think it may have something to do w/ the free leg position. I have just found if I'm really stuck on something, it helps to try something else. Often that makes the original way easier.

Seren said:

Initially it is a harder start- I have found weirdly enough that it is easier for me to center specific spins from the FI3, LFO entrance, namely the broken leg or layback. I think it may have something to do w/ the free leg position.

Click to expand...

That makes a lot of sense. I can see where it would make a difference with layback spins (haven't done one for a few decades, but haven't forgotten the feeling of them).

Seren said:

Initially it is a harder start- I have found weirdly enough that it is easier for me to center specific spins from the FI3, LFO entrance, namely the broken leg or layback. I think it may have something to do w/ the free leg position.

Click to expand...

I preferred this entrance for all forward spins except sitspins.

And once you can get into a spin by stepping from BO to FO, you can go straight from a jump landing or BO spiral into a spin as well.

Unfortunately I can't spin much any more because of hip pain exacerbated by centrifugal force.

Two suggestions:
(1) Try the entrance edge from a standstill on a line. Stand on the line with your feet in an inverted T position--your left foot (spinning foot) in front, with your right foot turned out and behind the heel of the skating foot, right on top of the line. Keep your left arm in front, right arm out to the side, bend knees and ankles, look over your left shoulder, then *gently* push around to the left, using your head and left arm to lead yourself into the imaginary circle that's behind your left shoulder. Don't try to cover any distance, just gently turn to the left and draw a little circle. If you do this correctly, you should see the tracing of a small half circle that starts at the line and ends at the line before becoming a spin.
(2) Make sure you keep your right arm and leg back on the entrance edge, then bring them through *together* as you hook the spin. I was having trouble on my upright spin entry not long ago and my coach noticed that I was bringing the right arm to the front before the right leg, not together. It resulted in the issues you describe, and fixing it fixed the problem for me.

Thanks for all the advice, guys! This gives me a lot of new things to try. It's comforting to hear that others have had difficulty with this. I have been continuing to work on it and have seen a little improvement, although it varies from time to time. I guess it just comes down to getting the right muscle memory, which takes some time.