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Thread: Tchernyshev to apply for Canadian Citizenship

  1. #76
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    My feelings on citizenship are very clear and don't waiver whether you are a sports person or a celebrity or an ordinary Joe Soap nobody knows.

    I am Irish and I am fiercely fiercely proud of that fact. I live in Britain now but I would never dream of giving up my Irish citizenship for anything.
    I firmly believe that gaining citizenship of a country should be a big deal and not something to be taken lightly. Effort should be made to learn the language if you don't already speak it, time should be taken to learn about the country, the history, customs, ways of life etc and it should be the same for *everyone* who applies.

    People have mentioned here about younger skaters simply having to beat Peter and Shae to get their place on the team. The thing is there are a hell of a lot of athletes who are not good enough to win Olys but who are good enough to be there and compete and live the experience. If I was a young athlete who worked my *** off for years to get to Olympics, Worlds, whatever, I would be mightily po'd if I lost my place on the team because someone better was sped through the citzenship process to allow them compete.

    Being a citizen is more than just a passport or a house in a country. It's about feeling that unexplainable sense of pride when you see your national flag somewhere or that proud tone when you tell someone your nationality. It's about wanting to tell everyone you know that your country is the world tiddly winks champions - doesn't matter that tiddly winks is stupid and everyone will probably laugh - it's about the fact that your country is the best at something! It's about defending your country to the death when some-one says it's ugly, horrible, rural full of thicko's whatever.

    Just my opinion

  2. #77
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    diver chick, I applaud your views on citizenship and your devotion to your country, I really do, please don't think I'm making light of that, I think it's wonderful, but not everyone has the same views and not everyone has the luxury of holding true to their own views and ideals. Sometimes life interferes with our noblest ideals and you just have to make adjustments.

    To assume anything regarding Peter's motives or feelings on this matter without hearing directly from him does him a disservice. Just my opinion.

    Nan

  3. #78
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    diver chick - The citizenship thing is a very important issue. IMO, Peter's tears for Russia and the United States will dry up quickly when he seeks his goal of Canadian citizenship. So be it. We all can assume we know what Peter has had in mind from day one, i.e. to skate in the Olys and one was not enough. Will he regre this after the Olys are over?

    I respect your attachment to your country of birth and agree that one should take citizenship of an adopted country seriously.

    Nan - When Annenko divorced Peter did the divorce take place in Russia and if so, did Peter go back to Russia for the legalities? If so, while in Russia it is hard to believe he could not find a partner and had to return to America to find Naomi. Naomi was not a well known name at the time.

    How many of those examples you listed have had more than one change of citizenship?

    I don't think the pregnancy was the sole reason for the split. I think and I say, think that he knew Tanith and Ben were the superior team and that was the underlining cause for the split between him and Naomi. Was Peter that good? IMO, no, I preferred to watch Naomi. Peter always looked to me as a heavy and desperate. Naomi just flowed with the dance. Were Tanith and Ben superior? Yeah!

    Naomi leaving her baby alone to skate. That sort of thing was the way we were Nowadays, Nanis and baby sitters as well Au Peres are quite plentiful and certaintly Naomi's tribal family would see to it that the baby was well taken cared for.

    Yes, yes. Let's not speed up the third citizenship thing. I think they will make a good looking team and be a bright spot in SOI. Everyone wants to see them on the ice.

    Joe

  4. #79
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    Nan - I totally agree with you about life sometimes just getting in the way and people not always having the luxery of holding to their ideals. For this reason I have no problem with people who chose to change citizenship once. A friend of mine is going through the process at the moment. It is a long and arduous prcess and took a lot of soul-searching on her part to make the decision and she lived in Ireland for years and years before she even considered it.

    I just find it sad that a lot of these decisions seem to be taken so lightly and seem to be motivated more by politics or money than anything. Peter has already changed citizenship once. Doing it a second time, particularly if it gets rushed through so he can compete at Olympics to my mind devalues the whole idea of national pride.
    It is sort of saying to other athletes, yeah okay you might be Canadian but you are not good enough to win so we will give this guy a passport and he can win us medals and recognition. Also it gives the impression that he himself does not value citizenship as anything more than a passport/piece of paper.
    That aside there is plenty of skating to be done without going to Olys, both eligible and professional because as I understand it Olys is the only one you need citizenship for.

    Personally I am having a hard time with the idea of Peter and Shae skating together because I think they are polar opposites and while different can work, I am wondering whether these two might be too different to be a match. Only time will tell.

  5. #80
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    I think I'm just about done on this topic, I know many of you are probably tired of my ramblings already, but here it goes one more time.

    Joe, I don't know of any skater at the elite level whose goal isn't the Olympics. Peter isn't unique in this. His route may very well be. As I stated before, a second change in citizenship may indeed make him alone in this regard, but I honestly don't know if there are other skaters out there who haven't done the same thing. Many see Soldatava's situation as similar and information on the lower level teams on this subject just isn't easily available. For all any of us know, it may have already happened several times.

    As far as Peter's divorce goes, sorry, I have no idea when or where it took place. Peter wasn't that well known at the time, either, and much of his "past" or "personal" information in this area was never included in any "Naomi and Peter" sites that I've found. I do know that very often, divorce is a matter of paper and lawyers only, the people involved don't need to be present if there are no objections and no one is contesting the divorce. My own happened in much that way.

    I think both Naomi and Peter knew that Tanith and Ben were becoming better skaters but I don't see Peter as someone who shies from competition. Wasn't it reported that after he and Naomi withdrew from Nationals, he told Ben (in a joking fashion), "We'll see you next year," or words to that effect? It sounds to me that at that time he had every intension of keeping the team together and continuing to compete for the US with B&A.

    Was Peter that good? Well, if you listen to what all the commentators had to say over the years (including the gentleman you use as your icon on GS), and the posters on various skating boards that seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject, yes, he was, and still may very well be. I can't see Shae-Lynn pairing up with someone who is less talented than she is. To watch Peter skate and call him "heavy and desperate" on the ice is a bit naive, in my opinion. I have no problem with anyone perferring to watch one partner of a team over the other, but I don't agree that calling Naomi a better skater than Peter is accurate.

    Would Naomi leave her baby in the care of others while she trains and practices? I don't know Naomi so I can't really answer that, but she has always impressed me as someone who holds family as important to her. I would be a little surprised if she abdicated this responsibility to someone else.

    I've probably beaten this horse enough, moving on to something else.

    Nan

    Sorry, diver chick, I didn't see you message before I hit the "reply" button so instead of posting again, I'll just add to this novel I've already started.

    Unless we know Peter and have asked him what his motives are and how he feels about a second change of citizenship, we have no way of knowing how he feels. He may very well have thought long and hard before making this decision, he may very well not have, we just don't know. Ultimately, the decision for Peter to become a Canadian citizen is in someone else's hands, the final "okay" is not his. A congressman has taken up the cause to expidite Tanith's papers, someone in Canada may very well do the same for Peter, but all he can do is ask, the decision to let it happen or *when* to let it happen is not in his hands.

    I was a little concerned about Peter and Shae-Lynn finding a style of their own that was compatable, too, but I've decided to just sit back and trust their judgement on this matter. I can't see either one of them continuing with this if they weren't fairly confident they could produce something good together.

    N.
    Last edited by NansXOXOX; 09-13-2004 at 12:08 PM.

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    Too funny

    Joesitz - methinks you are speaking tongue in cheek. You don't really think that ANY skater would throw their investment in skating and/or a partnership away just because another team from the country they represent had made improvment, do you? We can all name skaters who didn't get the gold, but continued to work at it. Guess Rudy should have been running scared... or Todd... or Michelle... even S-L and Victor had to accept less than gold and kept working at it...

    LOL, Peter and Naomi quitting because Ben and Tanith were coming up. Big snort. Ben and Tanith would provide reason to Continue, not to quit. A rivalry often results in greater performance...

    Peter is a magnificant skater. I'm looking forward to him skating again with another partner. Either eligible or pro. He's still got a contribution to make, got more in him to give to figure skating.

    Linny

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    In terms of citizenship: If people think Peter is odd for changing countries, how about all the Russian skaters who change citizenship to skate for Republics and then change back to Russia when they find a better partner. The two ladies I'm thinking of are Navka (Belarus) and Berezhnya(SP? Latvia). I don't think it's that much of a leap for Peter to skate for Canada. Heck, the US were so outraged over S&P at the Olympics and was so proud to say that they won one for North America that you would think that Canada was just another state. Is he really such a traiter for going where the opportunity is? Plus ice dancing really isn't respected in the US in terms of professional opportunities. I think that Peter and Shae Lynn will have more opportunities to skate in Canada, and Canadian citizenship would just be more convenient in terms of taxes etc.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Peter is fine with all his citizenships. If he goes pro with whomever that would be ideal. Joe
    There are a lot of people, both athletes and non athletes that have multiple citizenships, does this make them the non-loyal? All throughout the summer Olys there was talk of athletes changing citizenships for the sole purpose of the trip to the Olympics. The fact of the matter is people do it, no matter how many people grumble about it.

    As for the second sentence..... ideal for whom? Shae and Peter? The fans of other teams? Or skating in general?

    My frustration on the whole subject is that everyone thinks they know what's going on. Assumptions about the reasons why don't bother me nearly as much as the personality assumptions that are being made. IMHO unless you know Shae and/or Peter and know their reasons for the partnership straigh from them, no one should be making the personality knocks, however if you did know them you wouldn't say anything.
    ..... a few that come to mind ..... Shae probably wants to compete to get back at Victor...... Peter hitches his wagon to a star....
    I just think these are huge attacks at the integrity of both of these people.

    Joe, this is definately not directed right at you, more in general, your post I quoted really just grabbed my attention!! Sorry to pick on you!

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Naomi leaving her baby alone to skate. That sort of thing was the way we were Nowadays, Nanis and baby sitters as well Au Peres are quite plentiful and certaintly Naomi's tribal family would see to it that the baby was well taken cared for.
    There is a big difference between leaving a baby during the day while mommy is at work, and leaving the baby at home while going on tours, or even leaving for competitions all the time. From reading Gordeeva's book (I know you don't believe in reading that), I did not get a feeling that her arrangement with Daria was just like any working mom's arrangement. I would think coaching would be much easier on the new mom.


    Quote Originally Posted by diver chick
    Also it gives the impression that he himself does not value citizenship as anything more than a passport/piece of paper.
    Try looking at it from a different angle (though as the bottom line, your assessment is correct). Peter was born in "Leningrad, USSR"; he competes under a red flag with hammer-and-sickle. Then, suddenly, he lives in "St. Petersburg, Russia", and competes under a tri-color flag. I'd say that a pride in one's citizenship is something one gets from one's earliest years; I think anyone would admit it would be kind of difficult for the Russians of our generation. It is not wonder that that generation is more cynical than most about such things as "citizenship", "national pride" etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by diver chick
    Effort should be made to learn the language if you don't already speak it, time should be taken to learn about the country, the history, customs, ways of life etc and it should be the same for *everyone* who applies.
    Once again, being a part of a country is different for everybody. For instance, my mother has always had 0 interest in politics; she, as an American citizen, would be hard pressed to describe the three branches of our governement (she can do it, but it's just rote memorization). However, she knows more about American literature than probably 95% of natural-born Americans. For her, knowing a country's art and culture is way more important than all that stuff they ask you about on the citizenship exam. Personally, I started considering myself a "Bostonian" much earlier than an "American". In fact, I remember clearly the moment I realized I was fully and trully an American. It was during a Clinton administration, and I disagreed vehemently with certain actions the US took on international front (don't want to mention which to avoid another discussion); I realized that what I felt most of all was not anger but shame; I then realize that I indeed became an American, because one feels shame for one's own actions, not for someone else's. All I am saying is that it's very personal for each and every individual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    As far as the Olympic rules, can you imagine a six man regata where the coxman is a German, and the rowers are Portuguese. If the team wins, which flag is hoisted up? The Olympic rules are there for a purpose.
    I disagree. All countries have very different rules on citizenship. Take Frasier & Lukanin, for example. They could represent Azerbaijan immediately, but they would have had to wait a long time had they chosen to represent US (BTW, I would very much doubt Kristin has any feelings about Azerbaijan, or knows much about it). Why not let invidual countries decide who can and who cannot represent them at the games. In your example, the flat hoisted up would be them one that the teams would announce beforehand they represent.

    Dual citizenship
    The rules regarding official dual citizenship are indeed quite complex. However, most people don't bother. If you simply obtain another citizenship without doing anything about their old one. The truth is that getting rid of the old citizenship can be quite cumbersome. I didn't have to go through that -- my family left USSR in 1988, when we were forced to pay huge money (500 rubles per adult, when my parents each earned 160 rubles per month) to renounce our citizenship; otherwise, we couldn't leave. Right now, my friends who did go through the trouble of renouncing their Russian citizenship had to go to Washington, pay a fairly large amount of money (I think around $2000), go through red tape that took days, etc. Most just don't bother.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by NansXOXOX
    I never said anyone was bashing or hated Peter, but you might agree that phrases like, "It seems to me like he is shedding citizenships like dirty clothes." and "If Peter T. takes his American citizenship that lightly, then I think he's a dope................. then Peter is stupid to let himself be used in this manner." and "He doesn't care about his citizenship. It is only skating he cares for. This is obvious" and "the citizenship means nothing to him, it is only the skating that's important and winning that Olympic medal at any cost." are less than flattering and call into question his motives without any direct input from Peter on the subject.

    Russian fans might very well have been disappointed when he gave up his citizenship there to skate for the US, but that's not who is posting here on the subject now. It seems in part, Peter became a US citizen because this is where he found gainful employment and could continue skating as an eligible skater. A lot of other skaters in several different countries have done the same. Peter may be unique in that this may result in a second move, but what he is doing now is no different than what he did when he became a US citizen, or what other skaters have done for much the same reason.

    No one but Peter knows how he felt when he became a US citizen and no one but Peter knows how he feels about the prospect of giving up that citizenship.

    Nan


    Regarding the Russian fans.. I may have mis read or maybe read out of context, but it sounded like the question could be best answered by Russian fans in Russia, and not us here ..


    As far as others skating back and forth for different countries, I still think one could or should ask those people how it looked to them, or how it felt to see such back and forth.. In sports, I personally find a bit dissapointing to read when skaters/athletes do this.. (if it's not for life's sake) But, I understand it 's their right.. (we all should be given or take the opportunity to move onto better achievements) With Elena Berezhnaya.. I kind of got the understanding, she had no control over that... But, if so, I would still have smirked a bit at it..


    Perhaps it could be that I am not compassionate nor a fan of either, is why I'm not seeing fans as being insulting, but just passing opinions around.. Not saying I don't feel, just perhaps sometimes we may take comments a bit more to heart when it's our favorite being spoken of... I certainly have been there.
    Last edited by dmr65; 09-13-2004 at 12:59 PM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmr65
    Perhaps it could be that I am not compassionate nor a fan of either, is why I'm not seeing fans as being insulting, but just passing opinions around.. Not saying I don't feel, just perhaps sometimes we may take comments a bit more to heart when it's our favorite being spoken of... I certainly have been there.
    Very well said! It's seems to be quite apparent in this newly formed team!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Nan - When Annenko divorced Peter did the divorce take place in Russia and if so, did Peter go back to Russia for the legalities? If so, while in Russia it is hard to believe he could not find a partner and had to return to America to find Naomi. Naomi was not a well known name at the time.
    I know you asked Nan, but i will just point out that when Peter and Naomi began skating together he was still married to Natalia. L/T spent a season in Lake Placid training with Dubova and Annenko, then when Naomi missed Detroit, she, Peter AND Natalia moved to Detroit. Natalia stayed there, coaching when she and Peter split up, and at that point Peter was already a couple of years into skating with Naomi.

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    At the time Peter left Russia, there were lots of terrific Ice Dance teams, and the competition was fierce to train with the top coaches. I don't know how Russian skating fans felt about Peter leaving Russia, but I think if he had been one of the top male Russian ice dancers and had found an appropriate Russian partner, he probably wouldn't have left in the first place.

    That's not to say he isn't good, but at the time obviously he wasn't quite good enough.

    I have lots of reservations about the pairing with Shae. Neither one of them has competed since March of 2003, and because of ISU rules, they won't be able to compete in ISU events until the 2005-2006 season. Worse, neither one has competed under or has had any experience with the CoP. Normally, it takes years for an ice dance team to truly mesh and skate as one, even when both are experienced skaters. I just don't think there is sufficient time for Shae and Peter to reach that level.

    The citizenship issue is one that may come back to haunt Peter. He will certainly be burning bridges with the USFS, and SOI may not be anxious to sign B/T if there is negative publicity about his citizenship hopscotch, even if he retains his US citizenship. It well may be that their pro options will be limited to CSOI, especially if they fail to medal at Turin (and the chances of their making the podium are slim at best).

  14. #89
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    Thanks, miffy. I thought that was the sequence of events, but I wasn't sure and didn't want to give out any bad information.

    Nan

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm
    At the time Peter left Russia, there were lots of terrific Ice Dance teams, and the competition was fierce to train with the top coaches. I don't know how Russian skating fans felt about Peter leaving Russia, but I think if he had been one of the top male Russian ice dancers and had found an appropriate Russian partner, he probably wouldn't have left in the first place.

    That's not to say he isn't good, but at the time obviously he wasn't quite good enough.
    It might be useful to ask how Russian skating fans felt about Marina Anissina leaving, at about the same time and with tangible junior accomplishments.

    Anyway, there were a lot of Russian skaters leaving Russia to skate for other countries, both other former soviet republics and not. Some ended up finding high-level success, others less so or not at all, depending on various combinations of luck and talent.

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