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Thread: Why are there only 6 basic jumps?

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    Why are there only 6 basic jumps?


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    This is my very first post ever on this forum and I'm not a skater myself, but I would like to know why there are only six basic jumps: salchow, loop, toe-loop, flip, lutz and axel.

    I understand that it has something to do with take-off edges and such, but wouldn't there be any room for more jumps, perhaps of a totally different kind? I remember the back-flip (made famous by Surya Bonaly) but that one was banned because it's considered too dangerous.

    I can see how skaters are trying to make the existing jumps more complicated by adding extra revolutions, tanos and rippons. But what about other possible jumps (it doesn't even have to be jumps per se)?

    It would be so exciting if figure skating also evolved in totally different ways instead of simply perfecting what's already there.

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    Bona Fide Member chapis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elsie View Post
    This is my very first post ever on this forum and I'm not a skater myself, but I would like to know why there are only six basic jumps: salchow, loop, toe-loop, flip, lutz and axel.

    I understand that it has something to do with take-off edges and such, but wouldn't there be any room for more jumps, perhaps of a totally different kind? I remember the back-flip (made famous by Surya Bonaly) but that one was banned because it's considered too dangerous.

    I can see how skaters are trying to make the existing jumps more complicated by adding extra revolutions, tanos and rippons. But what about other possible jumps (it doesn't even have to be jumps per se)?

    It would be so exciting if figure skating also evolved in totally different ways instead of simply perfecting what's already there.
    I guess simply no one has invented more kinds of jumps. It would be cool more kind of jumps.

  3. #3
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    Nobody has invented new rotational jumps because no other ones are possible just based off the limited take off edges and picks.

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    From what I understand there are more than six basic jumps. There are for example the walley jump and also the toe walley. The toe walley is an opposite edge version of a toe loop. Whereas a walley is a sort of opposite edge version of a loop. There is also an opposite edge partner to the axle called an inside axle. I presume there is also an opposite edge version of the salchow too (it may be called a toeless lutz?) I know that a flip used to sometimes be called a toe-salchow. And a flip and lutz are obviously opposite edge versions of each other.

    So these would be the jumps with their opposite edge pairings.


    Toe loop- toe walley
    Salchow- toeless lutz???
    Loop- walley
    Flip- Lutz

    Axle-Inside axle (The relationship between these two jumps is different than the above relationships, because the take off is from the opposite foot as well as the opposite edge)

    I don't skate myself (and I'm not sure if I am correct on any of this) but I would guess that the other jumps aren't done because they aren't necessarily a direct translation of the jump that is classically done, because of how a skater has to rotate off of the edge; and they are therefore much more difficult. I remember reading years ago somewhere that under IJS a toe walley is scored as a toe-loop, but that no-one would do a toe-walley because it's a much more difficult jump; but wikipedia currently says that it is a non-scoring jump under the isu rules.

    Here is Yuna Kim's walley jump for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2H9I9lugUk

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    Actually, there are a lot of jumps that used to be used that aren't really anymore, like axels from forward inside edges, toe walleys (inside edge instead of the outside edge of the toe loop), etc. But actually, there are other possible jump techniques that haven't been tried, like forward take-off with toe pick assist, or approaching a jump from the side rather than front or back, mainly because they would be difficult, awkward, and not aesthetically pleasing. And skating is very much a sport that doesn't encourage deviation in jump technique at the current time. I could experiment and report back in a few years. ;P

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    ^ and ^^ for most of those you can't do more than 2 rotations so that's probably why they aren't considered real jumping passes

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    Jumps are named based on
    *takeoff edge (forward or backward, inside or outside)
    *whether or not there is a toepick assist (backward takeoffs only)
    *whether the rotation in the air is in the same direction as the takeoff edge or "counterrotated"

    Almost all variants of the above can be performed with half-rotation (backward to forward or forward to backward), and several can be performed with 1 or 1.5 rotations.

    Many of the varieties of low-rotation jumps have their own names, even if the takeoff edge, pick status, and natural/counter rotation status are the same as a multirevolution jump.

    They were all available for use in freeskating programs earlier in the history of the sport, before double and then triple and eventually quad jumps became important to technical content. They are still available hops to be used in steps sequences or as transitions. Coaches, choreographers, and skaters will talk about inserting a mazurka or ballet jump or counter jump or half-lutz, half-axel, one-foot salchow, etc., etc., if their linguistic skating community has a name for that move. But they don't count much as technical elements on their own, especially in IJS where they're considered "nonlisted jumps," so commentators usually don't bother naming on them on TV.

    Sometimes there are additional names for variations based on the air position and/or landing technique. Most jumps land backward on a back outside edge that curves in the same direction as the in-air rotation. Variants with a different landing edge (e.g., back inside edge of the other foot) might get a special name such as "half-loop" or "one-foot axel."

    There are only 6 types of takeoffs that can easily be performed with two or more rotations, and those have become more important in the sport as more and more skaters have been able to add more revolutions to those takeoffs.

    Some resources:
    http://sk8stuff.com/f_basic_ref/jump_table.htm
    http://iceskatingresources.org/FigureSkatingQ&A.pdf
    http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/f...nical.shtml#Q1
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure...ps#Other_jumps

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    Quote Originally Posted by jFarrisFAN View Post
    ^ and ^^ for most of those you can't do more than 2 rotations so that's probably why they aren't considered real jumping passes
    Yes, but they are still named jumps and they are still technically possible for at least one rotation and sometimes two.

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    UnBona Fide COP OS's Avatar
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    ..Because Hanyu has not invent one yet.

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    here is Josée Chouinard doing a triple toe walley...

    under 6.0 we would see more attempt at creative jumping passes... but now, this jump has no assigned value does it? so nobody would do it...

    now.. i am not an expert... so if this is a normal jump... blame the commentators

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    No current skater can invent a brand new way of taking off from the ice into the air. If it's possible, it has been done sometime in the last 80-100 years, perhaps only ever with 180 degree rotation.

    If a current skater can find a way to rotate 2-3 rotations and land on a back outside edge from a takeoff that no one has done that with before, I'd love to see it. And to see the ISU add it to the Scale of Values as a double or triple jump even if the single remains unlisted and scored only as a transition. I already think that double walley and double inside axel should be in the scale of values.

    If a double rotation from a completely different takeoff doesn't already have an appropriate name, then it could get named after whoever masters it first.

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    Bona Fide Member andromache's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elsie View Post
    I remember the back-flip (made famous by Surya Bonaly) but that one was banned because it's considered too dangerous.
    I recall reading it was also banned because doing a back-flip has nothing to do with edges, and ISU didn't want to further promote gymnastics on ice.

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    Back in 1982 when they created the Zayak rule, the ISU determined that triple toe loop and triple toe walley would be considered as the same jump.

    (edited to fix typo)

    Pretty much all triple toe walleys including that Chouinard example really curve onto the back outside edge before taking off anyway.

    It's important to understand the difference between toe walley (same as toe loop but with the blade curving on the inside edge away from where it's going to land, if done correctly) vs. walley(no toe assist, almost always ever done with single rotation, moderately common in all eras including IJS as a connecting move).

    We've discussed this at Golden Skate many times before over the years, but not all of the old threads are still available so we have to reiterate for new posters instead of just pointing to an existing discussion.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4everchan View Post
    here is Josée Chouinard doing a triple toe walley...

    under 6.0 we would see more attempt at creative jumping passes... but now, this jump has no assigned value does it? so nobody would do it...

    now.. i am not an expert... so if this is a normal jump... blame the commentators
    Under IJS, this can only possibly lead to a discussion as to whether she switches from an inside to an outside edge at the last moment, and the invention of term "toe lalley".

    (as i wrote this, Gkelly initiated the above. LOL)

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Back in 1982 when they created the Zayak rule, the ISU determined that triple toe loop and triple walley would be considered as the same jump.
    Should that not be "triple toe walley"- think this is a typing error......

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