Dick Button | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Dick Button

DJStuCrew

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 5, 2003
While his knowledge of the sport is indisputable and his experiences are beyond compare, what bugs me most about him is a sense of mean spiritedness. (We call him "The Voice of Doom" around our place.) He'll constantly run down skaters during a performance with such seemingly viscious negativity that it's downright rude. I mean, you can point out problems in a program without dumping on a skater, talking about the impact of the performance on their "career" or using the word "shame." Just because he's accomplished doesn't give him the right to insult competitors. He's an announcer, after all, not a critic.

I much prefer Scott Hamilton. Here's a guy with a few titles and no shortage of experience either. He also points out problems with a performance without sounding like he's TRASHING the skater. He also has a more relatable vocabulary, never using terms like "frivolous frumpery." And he sounds happier, as if there's no place he'd rather be and enjoying (or sympathizing with) what he sees. Dick often sounds sour and bored. Maybe he is, I don't know.

Being an announcer myself, we're taught to constantly critique ourselves and each other. These are my impressions, along with those of other DJ friends I've casually asked along the way. Those of us who know Mr. Button might revere his knowledge and history, but the casual viewer is sitting at home saying, "Who IS this guy and where does HE get off?" The differerences between Buttom and Hamilton is almost a classic example of the old saying, "It's not what you say, but how you say it."
 

Eeyora

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
I used to like Hamilton. However over the past few years he has said some things that have led me to disrespect him. Whenever a skater skates an excellant performance he just about declares them the winner. For instance, he just about declared Nancy the winner in Lillehammar. As she was finishing her program before Nancy had even skated. In 98, as I stated in another topic during the ladies long program preview. He predicted. Kwan can make one maybe two mistakes and still probably win the Olympics. As a Kwan fan I hoped what he said would be true but it obviously wasn't. During the 2002 Olympics, was when I lost respect for him though, First his behavior during the pairs event in which he stated as the Canadians were entering their final jump, "Just one last Jump and the gold is theirs" This was before Shen + Zhao had even skated. Then during the men's final he believed Yaugudin had surrendured to Plushenko and was believed he was in danger of falling into third place. Finally during the Ladies final he believed Michelle Kwan was smart in the beginning to skate conservatively and double her Triple-Triple combination.

While I do think Dick can be cruel at times( The Angela refrigerator break comment was just about as low as you can go). I appreciate his critique.
 

DJStuCrew

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 5, 2003
Guess everyone has their flaws, huh? Anytime you make a prediction, you put yourself out there. There's always the possibility of surprise -- of being wrong -- sometimes in a big way. I'll take that over cruelty anyday. (And at least Scott isn't above admitting that he was wrong.)
 

Miriam Boo

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 23, 2004
Takura, I love that photo of Yukina's layback on your posts...I absolutely love her. I'm really rooting for her this season. It will be a shame if she doesn't make it to Worlds...her skating should be showcased on the most elite stage for the entire world to see. IMO, she's the most beautiful skater in the world. I like Sasha also, but Yukina's movement on the ice appears to be more naturally beautiful.
 

Miriam Boo

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 23, 2004
Sorry for the mistake! It's kind of late for me...that photo is of Sasha's layback. I love that photo of Sasha...that's just breathtaking!! She sure is a beautiful doll face. Sasha has the superior free leg position in her layback to that of Yukina, but both have the best back positions in that spin...Shizuka has a nice back in that spin as well.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Hey, Boo. (I love that line from To Kill a Mockingbird, LOL.) ITA about both Sasha and Yukina.

Here's the astonishingly beautiful Y.O.

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/skate/soul/04JN/04JN29.jpg

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/skate/soul/04JN/04JN31.jpg

http://www.goldenskate.com/articles/2003/021104.shtml

And here's beautiful doll-face Sasha.

http://www.sashafans.com/media/gallery/2002olympics/long/long-sltribune-2.jpg

About Scott Hamilton as a commentator, I agree with D.J. that Scott is great at giving support to the skaters. Especially the ones a little farther down the list, who are skating for 10th place, or whatever. Scott acts like he can personally feel the pain of every fall.

Mathman
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Mathman - Oooooh. those pics of Yukina. A worthy contender for the best in the world but alas, her own compatriots will prevent her going beyon Japan's Nats. Damn those combos.

And not to mention my Bebe. She too, will have a big job getting out US Nats. Damn thos injuries.

Joe
 

swannanoa54

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
DJStuCrew said:
While his knowledge of the sport is indisputable and his experiences are beyond compare, what bugs me most about him is a sense of mean spiritedness. (We call him "The Voice of Doom" around our place.) He'll constantly run down skaters during a performance with such seemingly viscious negativity that it's downright rude. I mean, you can point out problems in a program without dumping on a skater, talking about the impact of the performance on their "career" or using the word "shame." Just because he's accomplished doesn't give him the right to insult competitors. He's an announcer, after all, not a critic.

I much prefer Scott Hamilton. Here's a guy with a few titles and no shortage of experience either. He also points out problems with a performance without sounding like he's TRASHING the skater. He also has a more relatable vocabulary, never using terms like "frivolous frumpery." And he sounds happier, as if there's no place he'd rather be and enjoying (or sympathizing with) what he sees. Dick often sounds sour and bored. Maybe he is, I don't know.

Being an announcer myself, we're taught to constantly critique ourselves and each other. These are my impressions, along with those of other DJ friends I've casually asked along the way. Those of us who know Mr. Button might revere his knowledge and history, but the casual viewer is sitting at home saying, "Who IS this guy and where does HE get off?" The differerences between Buttom and Hamilton is almost a classic example of the old saying, "It's not what you say, but how you say it."

The "casual viewer"? You've interviewed ALL casual viewers and they've made these comments about Dick Button? I find that hard to believe. And I know you didn't mean it that way, but, quite frankly, when someone makes generalized statements like that it makes me grind my teeth. (And right now I have stitches in my mouth so it hurts to grind :laugh: )

I like Dick Button. I've always liked him. And he isn't an "announcer". It wasn't what he was trained to do. Why shouldn't he point out the good, bad and ugly? I mean Peggy is talking about Sasha "folding like a card table" and has made other "ugly" comments as well but no one rags on her. Scott is one of my favorite male skaters but I could do without listening to him applaud each and every skater. Tell me truth. Tell me what to see and what not to see.

I've listened to Button for years and I enjoy his candor. I also recognize that in the past 4 years since his second brain injury that his personality has changed a little. As the spokesperson for the Brain Injury Association, he is as candid as he is when commentating on figure skating. I'd rather listen to 6 Dick Buttons than one Peter Carruthers.
 

DJStuCrew

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 5, 2003
realistic51 said:
The "casual viewer"? You've interviewed ALL casual viewers and they've made these comments about Dick Button? I find that hard to believe. And I know you didn't mean it that way, but, quite frankly, when someone makes generalized statements like that it makes me grind my teeth. (And right now I have stitches in my mouth so it hurts to grind :laugh: )

I like Dick Button. I've always liked him. And he isn't an "announcer". It wasn't what he was trained to do. Why shouldn't he point out the good, bad and ugly? I mean Peggy is talking about Sasha "folding like a card table" and has made other "ugly" comments as well but no one rags on her. Scott is one of my favorite male skaters but I could do without listening to him applaud each and every skater. Tell me truth. Tell me what to see and what not to see.

I've listened to Button for years and I enjoy his candor. I also recognize that in the past 4 years since his second brain injury that his personality has changed a little. As the spokesperson for the Brain Injury Association, he is as candid as he is when commentating on figure skating. I'd rather listen to 6 Dick Buttons than one Peter Carruthers.

Well, I could've said "the casual viewers that I've spoken to," but I didn't want to overstate the obvious. And you've missed my point.

I also appreciate candor, but you can convey both good and bad without sounding harsh or judgmental. The only reason Button comes off that way is because he chooses to do so. (It obviously isn't due to a lack of education or command of language!) His choice of words, therefore, seems quite measured and deliberate, revealing a certain meanness of spirit that I dislike. You're free to disagree. Perhaps he doesn't realize it, but I find it hard to believe.

I'm with you as far as Carruthers is concerned. I guess in the case of both of them, it exemplifies my conviction that just because you're accomplished at whatever you're watching, that doesn't make you qualified to jump into the broadcast booth and play "announcer guy" (or gal). Technical advisor? Yes. Announcer...?
 
S

SkateFan4Life

Guest
Eeyora said:
I used to like Hamilton. However over the past few years he has said some things that have led me to disrespect him. Whenever a skater skates an excellant performance he just about declares them the winner. For instance, he just about declared Nancy the winner in Lillehammar. QUOTE]

I remember that. When Nancy Kerrigan completed her Lillihammer long program, Scott Hamilton stated (to paraphrase), "Dreams do come true. What a great night for Nancy Kerrigan!" His commentary was slanted, in the sense that he practically crowned Kerrigan the Olympic champion before Oksana Baiul skated.

I wish Hamilton would refrain from using the phrase "He/she nailed it!" Ugh. What a wierd description to successfully landing a jump. IMHO, of course.
 

swannanoa54

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
DJStuCrew said:
Well, I could've said "the casual viewers that I've spoken to," but I didn't want to overstate the obvious. And you've missed my point.

I also appreciate candor, but you can convey both good and bad without sounding harsh or judgmental. The only reason Button comes off that way is because he chooses to do so. (It obviously isn't due to a lack of education or command of language!) His choice of words, therefore, seems quite measured and deliberate, revealing a certain meanness of spirit that I dislike. You're free to disagree. Perhaps he doesn't realize it, but I find it hard to believe.

I'm with you as far as Carruthers is concerned. I guess in the case of both of them, it exemplifies my conviction that just because you're accomplished at whatever you're watching, that doesn't make you qualified to jump into the broadcast booth and play "announcer guy" (or gal). Technical advisor? Yes. Announcer...?

At least we agree on Carruthers!! :laugh:

I will say that "his choice of words" lately have been different from before, especially the last 4 years. And I will agree that they could sound mean-spirited. The thing is that he loses words. He has to be deliberate about what he says because he will misuse words. This is common with brain injuries. Have you ever noticed that he miscalls a jump or a certain move? He has talked about not being able to "quickly" grab the name of the move and/or jump. I find myself trying to help him even if he can't hear me. :laugh: I will disagree with you that Button chooses to come off that way. But that's cool. I happen to know more than I ever wanted to know about brain injuries so I understand where Button is coming from.
 

DJStuCrew

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 5, 2003
Well, I'll certainly concede that you might have a point there. I'm unfamiliar with the specifics of his injuries, or how well he's recovered from them. Still, if it has such an effect on his abilities to do the job he's being asked to do, then it might be time to hang up his mic, or at least take a break until fully recovered. (And I'd sure feel differently about him if I thought it was an injury and not a sense of meanness that was behind his words. Forgive me if I'm skeptical.)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I'm not any kind of expert, but to me it is very obvious that Button is indeed groping to bring out words that he knows very well, but just can't get them up to the front of his mind. He was off the air for a year, recuperating from his injury. Even with this now minor but still evident handicap, he is still the best

Sometimes I think what comes out as meaness is just a reflection of how much he cares about the sport and about the athletes. Sometimes he is just fit to be tied when Sasha skates a near-perfect program, then makes a bad mistake right at the end. If Dick starts sputtering it's because he so wanted her to skate her best.

Then there are his pet peeves -- ladies who don't point their toes in their layback, men who don't get all the way down in their sit spin. Well, that's an insult to the sport, LOL.

Mathman
 
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hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
What I dislike about Button and just about every commentator I've heard on US TV with the possible exception of Susie Wynn (some of the time) and occasionally Carruthers is that they don't teach the audience very much about skating, and what they do teach is inconsistent and/or out of context.

Yes, just about any new audience member listening to Button for 20 minutes knows when a layback has an egregious position or a man's back is egregious in a sit spin, and they think they know that the most difficult spin is a forward scratch spin and that the forward edge going into the axel jump is THE MOST DANGEROUS THING IN SKATING. But do they get a clue about edges or any characteristic other than amplitude in a spiral? Or that some characteristics do not translate to TV, like speed, smooth edging, ice coverage, changes of direction, etc.? Would they know to apply the same criticism of Kwan's layback that the commentators make of Sebestyen's, to notice the travel on Weir's or Lambiel's headless scratch spin, or to apply the same praise to Lindemann's landing edges as they do to Joubert's? Yes, Lambiel's spins are often original and well-done, but how does one compare them to Klimkin's, whose spiral position is exemplary and who does spins on both sides and approaching from both directions?

Wynn, at least, does speak to what the judges might appreciate, such as Navka/Kostomarov's leg line. She might or might not agree that they are better than other teams with higher difficulty, but she at least lets the audience know what the judges are looking for, and not to exaggerate her personal preferences.

Considering how much babbling goes on between Fleming, Gannon, and Button, they could take the same about of words and apply them to judging the whole performance, like the Eurosport commentators do: "high jump, telegraphed, with little flow," "underrotated," deep edges, "well-centered", "great camel position," "spin loses speed and focus," etc. They apply this consistently to each skater. It was through their broadcasts that I realized the abundance of talent at the "bottom" of figure skating ranks.

The reason I think this is important is because the US audience is the biggest audience with the most money to spend, and this kind of commentary means that few ever learn to appreciate any skater who isn't from the US, portrayed as "cute" and "bubbly", is featured in People magazine, and/or has a twist of a human interest story. While I don't expect Ilia Klimkin, B&S, Sebestyen, or Arakawa, for example, to be headliners in US shows (except for hard-core fans), just as I would expect the average opera goer to buy tickets to hear Placido Domingo, but not Cynthia Lawrence, it would be much better for the health of skating if people got to the arena and could "discover" skaters because they'd been taught to recognize quality. Then maybe there'd be a demand for more than four or five programs on a broadcast, instead of repeats of Kwan on the Beach and Sasha Goes Shopping.

I don't think our broadcasters are doing anything to further this education.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Nicely put hockeyfan, but I don't think any one commentator can go through 25 odd skaters for the comparison with the one on the ice at the moment.

Joe
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Joesitz said:
Nicely put hockeyfan, but I don't think any one commentator can go through 25 odd skaters for the comparison with the one on the ice at the moment.

Joe
The Eurosport guys do -- there are two of them, and they comment on every skater. What's great about them is that they give credit where it is due and criticize pretty even-handedly: if a 24th ranked skater has a great Lutz or fabulous spins as good as anyone else's, they'll say it. If a top skater travels all over the place and makes a mess of it, they'll say it. If someone's off for the day or skating much faster than they did at Euros, they'll say it.

It's not so much that I think Button, et. al. should compare every skater with every other skater. It's that if they say that Lambiel's spin travels, they should say that Weir's spin travels. If they go on and on about Joubert's great landing edges, they should point out Lindemann's, so that viewers look for it and maybe have an inkling why Lindemann won a bronze medal.

Viewers certainly would have had a clue listening to Martini and Underhill's commentary on CBC. Whether or not a viewer agreed that Lindemann's strengths were better than Lambiel's, they would have known that Lindemann had some, and that he wasn't just a lucky homeboy. My beef with Martini and Underhill is that they try too much for a narrative and don't critique the elements consistently, plus they have to deal with the interruptions of their equivalent of Gannon as a color guy, even if he's not as faux clueless as Gannon. For example, if they're going to complain that L&A were underscored by pointing out how difficult their lifts were, for example, they needed to point out difficulty of lifts throughout the competition.
 

PrincessLeppard

~ Evgeni's Sex Bomb ~
Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Chris and Simon of British Eurosport absolutely kick *ss at commentating on skating. Totally agree with you about pointing out the strengths of the skater in 24th as well as the skater in 1st. The only national bias they display is just usually to gush a bit more over their own skaters, and they certainly don't put down skaters from other countries. Seriously, Dick and Peggy and Terry and Peter could learn a few lessons in fairness and diplomacy from Chris and Simon. Heck, ESPN should just flat out hire Chris and Simon, or just broadcast the Eurosport audio track. :D

Laura :)
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
PrincessLeppard said:
The only national bias they display is just usually to gush a bit more over their own skaters, and they certainly don't put down skaters from other countries. Seriously, Dick and Peggy and Terry and Peter could learn a few lessons in fairness and diplomacy from Chris and Simon. Heck, ESPN should just flat out hire Chris and Simon, or just broadcast the Eurosport audio track. :D

Laura :)
Considering that at this point, that takes up about an extra 30 seconds or so of the broadcast :) (Although it seems like there's a resurgence among the younger ice dancers.)

I think ESPN should just buy the whole Eurosport broadcast and forget about sending Button and Fleming and Gannon and Carruthers anywhere. I'd even trade Wynne for Chris and Simon.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Oh, the inconsistency of it all!

hockeyfan228 said:
It's not so much that I think Button, et. al. should compare every skater with every other skater. It's that if they say that Lambiel's spin travels, they should say that Weir's spin travels. If they go on and on about Joubert's great landing edges, they should point out Lindemann's, so that viewers look for it and maybe have an inkling why Lindemann won a bronze medal.

Gannon as a color guy, even if he's not as faux clueless as Gannon. For example, if they're going to complain that L&A were underscored by pointing out how difficult their lifts were, for example, they needed to point out difficulty of lifts throughout the competition.
These errors you cited should definitely be pointed out, especially for those casual viewers. For the hard core fans, they are obvious unless it requires a slomo repeat. I am all for slomo repeats rather than the words of any commentator be s/he No.American or European. I can understand a fan of a skater being annoyed at a commenator whose personal bias slips into the delivery. I watched Eurosport in Dortmund and they were gushing over anything German whether they won or lost. It didn't bother me. I know better :)

Travelling spins are something every skater does. It's a matter of how much. Consistency is never 100 per cent. . I will be looking for Weir to travel on his spins consistently to see if you are correct. As you are aware, I am against brandishing skaters because of a perceived consistency, e.g., underrotated jumps. :\

My own personal taste in Pairs skating lifts is not the difficulty but the beauty of them. I do not like many pairs lifts. But hey, that's just me. I hate Pairs spins, by the way, except the ones that do not look like a wrestling match.

Joe
 
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