Time deduction on SP ...

It's an old topic since MK's SP got time deduction at 2004 Worlds. I know there is a rule aobut the time deduction. But it was also said that the rule had rarely been invoked at elite level.

I would like to know if there was any deduction taken at Alexand Aps SP at 2001 world. Just rewatched his SP at 2001 worlds, looks he was actually never stopped the moving at the end of his program? Though not sure how long his music cut was. But he clearly never stopped the moving so you can't tell which was his ending pose really.

I don't think you will be able to find easily when time deductions were taken. Remember, the only thing that shows up with the 6.0 system is the actual mark. There's no way to know what it stands for, unlike with CoP where you have to judge elements separatedly. The only way you'll be able to know when a time deduction was taken is ask a judge LOL We knew Michelle suffered one because they asked the judges about the low marks and then told to the press. Otherwise, you wouldn't have known either.

I'll have to watch Abt's SP, but again, it absolutely does no matter whether the skater stops after the music or in time with the music for the deduction to be applied. There are countless times when skaters stop after the music. What matters is that the time allowed for the PROGRAM (which has to do with the skater's movement) is not surpassed. That's why Michelle suffered a deduction, not because she finished after the music.

RIskatingfan said:

What matters is that the time allowed for the PROGRAM (which has to do with the skater's movement) is not surpassed. That's why Michelle suffered a deduction, not because she finished after the music.

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That's exactly what I mean. If you watch his SP at 2001, it appared that he never actually stop the moving at and/or after his PROGRAM ended. You just never saw a clear cut of end pose, where he supposed to stop moving.

Yes, you are right with 6.0 you clearly never know if the deduction was taken. Just hope someone from this board would have some info or knowledge to be able to tell.

mzheng said:

That's exactly what I mean. If you watch his SP at 2001, it appared that he never actually stop the moving at and/or after his PROGRAM ended. You just never saw a clear cut of end pose, where he supposed to stop moving.

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It's not common, but sometimes there isn't a clear stop in the program. The skater doesn't really stop moving and they go directly to the bows. I know I've seen it before and recently, I think it was with Sale&Pelletier. As long as there is enough time left, I don't think it would constitute a problem. But yeah, maybe it would be harder to judge, I don't know.

In the old days they used to blow a whistle that the program is "now" over timewise, and the judges put their eyes to their notes not knowing whether a skater stopped skating. they were not going to judge anything after the whistle.

There could be a deduction for a poor finish, e.g., still spinning when the whistle blew.

Joe

mzheng said:

That's exactly what I mean. If you watch his SP at 2001, it appared that he never actually stop the moving at and/or after his PROGRAM ended. You just never saw a clear cut of end pose, where he supposed to stop moving.

Yes, you are right with 6.0 you clearly never know if the deduction was taken. Just hope someone from this board would have some info or knowledge to be able to tell.

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I don't know for sure, but I know AFTER the 2001 season, the ISU came out with a rule saying that the time for the programs is to not stop until the skaters has definitely stopped moving. Laetitia Hubert also had a short program at that Worlds where she just glided on two feet at the end rather than stopping, but I don't know if they both got away with it or not because of a lack of precise rules until after..

Back to what RI said, both Abt and Hubert did go over the 2:40 with their ending movements, so it wasn't a case of having extra time..

BTW- in 2002, Abt changed his "Artsakh" SP so that he did stop at the end.

mzheng said:

I would like to know if there was any deduction taken at Alexand Aps SP at 2001 world. Just rewatched his SP at 2001 worlds, looks he was actually never stopped the moving at the end of his program? Though not sure how long his music cut was. But he clearly never stopped the moving so you can't tell which was his ending pose really.

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Like Tony Wheeler said, I think they brought in a rule that said the ending had to involve the skater stopping moving. It must have been brought in post-2001 if Abt's SP had that kind of ending. There was a similar moving ending in a couple of Anissina & Peizerat's FDs, such as in 2000 and 2001.

It doesn't matter if the skater stops after their music (maybe there's a slight deduction, not sure), but the issue with Michelle wasn't just that she stopped after her music, it was that the time she was skating/moving was longer than the maximum 2:40. It happened because her music length was apparently exactly 2:40, which doesn't leave any room for error, and because she finished after it ended, she was skating for more than the maximum time, which is why she got the deduction. Often you see skaters finishing slightly after the music, e.g. finishing a spin, but it isn't usually that deduction they get because their music isn't usually cut to the maximum time allowed, which means they have a little leeway and are still inside the time limit.

Thanks Tony and icenut84.

In Abt case I would guess he definitly still glidding on ice after 2:40 mark. He clearly kept glidding after the music stopped and he continue glidding until he caughtup with his breath and take bow. Since he made several mistakes in his program the mark was low so can't tell if the deduction was taken. But as you said the rule was imposed after 2001, thus it diddn't matter.