Massimiliano Ambesi's podcast translation

Yatagarasu · Oct 2, 2017

Some of you may know Massimiliano Ambesi as the ITA Eurosport commentator (along with Angelo Dolfini) for figure skating (and other winter sports) so when I saw the translation of the podcast, I thought I'd bring it over (I do have permission in case anyone's wondering). As someone who's been in and around figure skating, his thoughts are I think worth a read.

It was pre-Nebelhorn, so the first part of it is slightly out of date but there was plenty of interesting things worth noting, like the talk in Part 2, the remark about potential issues that may arise from essentially one school being so dominant in Russia, to Part 4 and the talk about the issues with the proposed new changes in the scoring where for me he hits it right on the head "I don't believe it's a problem in the rules in and of itself. It's a problem of the rules' application."

The link to the full translation of the ~2hr talk:
https://the-a-factor-fs.tumblr.com/post/165975610600/kiss-cry-episode-1

Ender · Oct 2, 2017

After reading a half of the podcast, I have to say this is really such a deep analysis of the whole system. I like that he acknowledges Sonitkova’s skills and talents. It’s a shame not many people in the English skating forum acknowledges that, for fear of something. She is truly one of the wonder kids who had it all. Too bad we couldn’t see more from her.

Yatagarasu · Oct 2, 2017

Ender said:
After reading a half of the podcast, I have to say this is really such a deep analysis of the whole system. I like that he acknowledges Sonitkova’s skills and talents. It’s a shame not many people in the English skating forum acknowledges that, for fear of something. She is truly one of the wonder kids who had it all. Too bad we couldn’t see more from her.

I think all too often for my liking the fact that she was a great talent who was a good skater gets swept aside for the sake of other things. IIRC he was positive about her even four years ago, so I like it that he brought her up again and that he speaks as he does.

This Adelina talk reminded me, the way he talks about Carolina, and also Plushenko

but Plushenko - in the same way as Carolina Kostner - is a skater from another figure skating, a figure skating that doesn’t exist anymore.

makes me wonder what will happen if the proposed changes are as drastic as they can be. How many skaters will adapt and go on, and how many will be 'a skater from another figure skating'.

But yes, there's a lot of information there to go through, but very enjoyable!

Rissa · Oct 2, 2017

Thank you very much for brining it over. There are many topics talked about there that I saw talked about here at the forum but I haven't seen in interviews, such as the power of coaches. Perhaps it's a perspective of someone from a smaller federation?

The ins and outs of Team Event have also become a bit clearer - I wasn't aware how much strategizing could go into the Team Event and I finally understand why it was so important that Hanyu skate the SP in Sochi instead of FS.

I had no idea about Tutberidze training method, but then I don't really follow ladies. Wow. The observations about the Russian head-hunting process was interesting too. He sounds li like a total fan of Tutberidze. I agree with him on Pogorilaya - she's got more presence than Tutberidze girls but you don't win competitions with that. Pity.

I also wasn't aware that Hanyu took Cha under his wing, lol. And he must have some mean powers of persuasion to ferret out from whoever Hanyu's success rate on the 4A.

Interesting point on how the fact that after Yagudin Plushenko never had an all-around rival who'd force him to develop like current skaters are forced to develop.

Mathman · Oct 2, 2017

Welcome, Rissa, and thanks for the thoughtful post.

LittleLotte29 · Oct 2, 2017

The fifth pair in my opinion is the Israeli, with this somewhat mythological character, Evgeni Krasnopolsky, who changed countless partners, but for the Olympic season he always manages to find the right one.

:luv17:

charlotte14 · Oct 2, 2017

The guy has a point about the new BV.

If you lower the base values of jumps by 7, 8, or even 10% instead, it does change nothing. Absolutely nothing. Because in any case everybody would be pushed to execute those quads––they still give you more points. Who would to do a triple lutz if they can get almost double the points with a quad lutz? If I have the skill to try a quad, I would work to accomplish that.

The issue is judges are too easy with the scores, not the system.

Yatagarasu · Oct 3, 2017

charlotte14 said:
The guy has a point about the new BV.
The issue is judges are too easy with the scores, not the system.

He has a good point in that entire section really, not just the BV. But yes, even if the BV gets lowered it's still be an advantage to go for a quad so people will go for a quad. And when it comes to the PCS he's right that very rarely do we see a significant difference between component marks for one skater, it is basically as if there is a start base for them, according to who the skater is (and the whole reputation this is not new) so then we get certain numbers. So even if they change the factoring, if this type of judging continues, what will it matter? We'll still end up in the same black hole. It's not the system, it is how it is being used/rules applied.

Rissa said:
I also wasn't aware that Hanyu took Cha under his wing, lol. And he must have some mean powers of persuasion to ferret out from whoever Hanyu's success rate on the 4A.
Interesting point on how the fact that after Yagudin Plushenko never had an all-around rival who'd force him to develop like current skaters are forced to develop.

Welcome Rissa!

And he does have excellent information sources. We've heard lots of things from him that end up being correct. He's actually the first person who even told us Hanyu rotated the 4A, and of course, later it came from others but if he says it's that %, he's more than likely right about it.

The Plushenko part is a fair point indeed (and I do wish we got to see more of him because what a magnificent talent). Now we do see an opposite situation where we did have that push that caused an answer from quite a few skaters. There're pros and cons to this of course, which is where his talk about quantity comes into play, one I agree with and just how negatively this will impact the overall development of young skaters (or their health).

Li'Kitsu · Oct 3, 2017

Yatagarasu said:
IIRC he was positive about her even four years ago, so I like it that he brought her up again and that he speaks as he does.

Yes, as far as I know Max has always been positive about Adelina. Which deserves recognition especially when we take into account that he is a huge Yuna fan (and I think would have wanted her to win in Sochi). But Max, despite having his favorites as well, really seems to manage repsect and appreciation for everyones strengths and accomplishments - honestly and fairly. That is quite rare IMO, no matter how many people like to paint themselves in that light.

shine · Oct 3, 2017

Yatagarasu said:
He has a good point in that entire section really, not just the BV. But yes, even if the BV gets lowered it's still be an advantage to go for a quad so people will go for a quad. And when it comes to the PCS he's right that very rarely do we see a significant difference between component marks for one skater, it is basically as if there is a start base for them, according to who the skater is (and the whole reputation this is not new) so then we get certain numbers. So even if they change the factoring, if this type of judging continues, what will it matter? We'll still end up in the same black hole. It's not the system, it is how it is being used/rules applied.

Welcome Rissa!

And he does have excellent information sources. We've heard lots of things from him that end up being correct. He's actually the first person who even told us Hanyu rotated the 4A, and of course, later it came from others but if he says it's that %, he's more than likely right about it.

The Plushenko part is a fair point indeed (and I do wish we got to see more of him because what a magnificent talent). Now we do see an opposite situation where we did have that push that caused an answer from quite a few skaters. There're pros and cons to this of course, which is where his talk about quantity comes into play, one I agree with and just how negatively this will impact the overall development of young skaters (or their health).

Really? This is the same Plushenko we are talking about who competed at 4 different Olympics, right?

Yatagarasu · Oct 3, 2017

shine said:
Really? This is the same Plushenko we are talking about who competed at 4 different Olympics, right?

In the context of the translation, yes.

charlotte14 · Oct 4, 2017

shine said:
Really? This is the same Plushenko we are talking about who competed at 4 different Olympics, right?

After Yagudin retired, Plushenko pretty much was stuck in the past. In some way, without Plushenko, Yagudin would never develop his artistry to the point he won Olympic 2002 with those legendary performances. But no one pushed Plushenko the way he pushed Yagudin after that. He walked through Olympic 2006 easily. The men field in 2010 was too weak he also did not improve and still could get a medal quite easy, even though I might not hold it against his age by then.

DorYiu · Oct 4, 2017

I just had time to finish reading the full translation, always love to thanks the translator first. :thank:

I love to hear Max's point of view for the figure skating development. He have guts to say what he want, and he is usually spot on. :biggrin:

Can't agree more on the scoring system reform. One day I was at work and can't stoping thinking about the ISU artical about lowering the BV and separate the technical and artistry program. So I use 2017 world championships' man's SP & LP's score to preform the recalculation according to the lower BV. The result is exactly what Max mentioned, almost nothing change, some man at rank 5,6,7 might swap positions, but NOTHING change at all. I also tried another thing, to proportioned TES & PCS to 50/50. Agian, nothing change.

It is therefore obvious that the problem is with the PCS (to be exact, the way it was use by the judges). With the top man in the figure skating world, the difference on the TCS is huge, it could be well over 40 points in free. While for PCS, the gap is so small, when compare the PCS for the top 10 in man's free (at WC), the difference is only 18 points. let's not forget Max call Hanyu's 97.08 PCS a scandal. So he thinks Hanyu was really underscored in PCS.

Getting a mathematician for ISU is a good suggestion

Seems like he is really looking forward to see Cha shine in near future

I am already looking forward to the next episode.

russianfan · Oct 4, 2017

Very interesting read indeed. Thank you for bringing it over!

Baron Vladimir · Oct 5, 2017

I also think rising a factor of PCS to match the current TES is the best solution. Regarding his observation of PCS maybe it should be a little more variations in scores between PCS. Its quite logical (for me) that skaters who are executing programs with more variety and transitions in it are all around better skaters... but even higher base value in some cases could mean higher PCS, that doesnt always mean PCS should be in same level with others. Nathan probably deserves 88 PCS like Shoma deserves 94 PCS with those kind of programs, but than Yuzy, Javi and Patrick should recieve 100+ in that part, if skating clean and precise. Higher factoring of PCS could also solve that problem in some degree.

Ender · Oct 5, 2017

Baron Vladimir said:
I also think rising a factor of PCS to match the current TES is the best solution. Regarding his observation of PCS maybe it should be a little more variations in scores between PCS. Its quite logical (for me) that skaters who are executing programs with more variety and transitions in it are all around better skaters... but even higher base value in some cases could mean higher PCS, that doesnt always mean PCS should be in same level with others. Nathan probably deserves 88 PCS like Shoma deserves 94 PCS with those kind of programs, but than Yuzy, Javi and Patrick should recieve 100+ in that part, if skating clean and precise. Higher factoring of PCS could also solve that problem in some degree.

Or they should just go for a 6.0-CoP hybrid where technique is scored on numbers but presentation is judged on ordinal.

Baron Vladimir · Oct 5, 2017

Ender said:
Or they should just go for a 6.0-CoP hybrid where technique is scored on numbers but presentation is judged on ordinal.

It will be though to make a total score. Maybe they can in a way that 'best presenter' should got 100% of her/his TES, the second best 95%, third 90% etc... But looking on it in a simple mathematical way, ordinal scales are generaly more problematic than intetval or ratio scales. They are also more prone to subjectivity and in every existing sport in the world subjectivity in judging tends to be removed from the sport. In 6.0 system artistic mark was often dependable on Choreographer and dancing classes skater had on a floor, which i think shouldnt be the case in FS as a distinctive competitive Olympic sport (maybe that could be applied in some new discipline as Single dancing on Ice, but im not sure that will become a part of Olympic sports)

kevinVchicago · Oct 9, 2017

Yatagarasu said:
"I don't believe it's a problem in the rules in and of itself. It's a problem of the rules' application."

The link to the full translation of the ~2hr talk:
https://the-a-factor-fs.tumblr.com/post/165975610600/kiss-cry-episode-1

If they have their way, Kostner will no longer need to jump at all.

TryMeLater · Oct 31, 2017

New podcasts are available and make for quite an interesting read.
They are long but IMO are worth it - they talk technique (pre-rotations), predictions, PCS analysis, schools of skating, IJS and a whole lot more.
Episode 2 - https://the-a-factor-fs.tumblr.com/post/166185271570/kiss-cry-episode-2
Episode 3 - https://the-a-factor-fs.tumblr.com/post/166669560580/kiss-cry-episode-3
Episode 4- https://the-a-factor-fs.tumblr.com/post/166821488735/kiss-cry-episode-4

Massimiliano Ambesi's podcast translation

Yatagarasu

Ender

Match Penalty

Yatagarasu

Rissa

Mathman

LittleLotte29

charlotte14

Yatagarasu

Li'Kitsu

shine

Yatagarasu

charlotte14

DorYiu

Let’s go crazy

russianfan

Match Penalty

Baron Vladimir

Ender

Match Penalty

Baron Vladimir

kevinVchicago

TryMeLater

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