JGP Belgrade
- Thread starter missflick
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
And there's a Swedish pair, Pulkina/Hogner, that's less than .5 behind the second place team from the US, after the SP with the highest tech score, but weakish PE scores. That must mean that the development program in Sweden is starting to pay off, because in an article in the Euros 2003/Malmo program, they weren't even expecting pairs teams at this point.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
There seems to be close scores in every discipline at least in the top 4 preliminaries. I think that shows that the CoP is working.
Joe
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Gold and Silver for the Americans in Pairs. Hard to believe.
And what happened to Mai Asado in Singles?
Joe
And what happened to Mai Asado in Singles?
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I don't know if this means the CoP is working, or if it means that we will see a lot of controversy and contested results.Joesitz said:
In Ladies, Lepisto edged out Bugaeva by a score of 120.71 to 102.54 -- only 17 hundreds of a point.
In pairs, the difference between first and second was 14 hundredths of a point -- Alassov/Meekins 128.96, Smith/Chitwood 128.82.
And in dance, Capellilini and Zanni topped Gorshkova and Tkachenko also by less than a point, 169.69 to 168.72.
All of these results are well within the margin of error introduced by the random draw. Although the random draw procedure is statistically sound, it can't help but create bad feelings for skaters and fans of skating who perceive that the winner is being decided by a roll of the dice.
In the men's competition, Mabee won on points, but under ordinal system judging, Rogers would have won because he finished first in the free and second in the short. Again, we are left with the feeling that the winner is determined by the inner workings of the judging system, rather than by what happens on the ice.
I think there will be problems ahead, when more is at stake. (Just like there were problems with the old system, LOL.)
Mathman
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Mathman - I didn't think of it in the terms you presented. Thank you for waking me up. All I can say is that Tarrosova said that she believes the CoP will be easier for judges to cheat than the 6.0 system. I now think, she may be right. I hope someone in GS keeps a tally on the upcoming senior scores although we will never know who the judges were.
Joe
Joe
Seems to me two or three judges working in concert could tip a result one way or another simply by highball/lowball on the Skating Components marks for the top skaters. They could make up for a lower tech score by boosting the SC marks for that skater while making sure the SC marks for the skater with the higher TES are lower.
The judges at the 2001-2002 GPF handed Irina Slutskaya the win despite the fact that she landed only 4 clean triples and no combination in the final FS. The judges simply boosted her 'Presentation' scores higher than Kwan's and Hughes's to give her the 4/3 ordinal split.
The judges can do the same thing under CoP by padding those SC scores.
The judges at the 2001-2002 GPF handed Irina Slutskaya the win despite the fact that she landed only 4 clean triples and no combination in the final FS. The judges simply boosted her 'Presentation' scores higher than Kwan's and Hughes's to give her the 4/3 ordinal split.
The judges can do the same thing under CoP by padding those SC scores.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
This is one of the many reasons that proposals were made for Regional judges. No more than two from Eastern Europe and Asia; Two from Western Europe; Two from North America, Australia, South Africa, and two from Eastern Asia.chuckm said:
In that grouping there would never be a predominance of culturally tied judges, but of course, the proposal was defeated by 'guess'
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
Mathman, I fully agree with you that the random draw will add to skaters' and viewers' unease. As for the results that would have been different under 6.0 -- well, that may actually mean that CoP is working. If I recall, the same happened in the last year when at one of the GP events (Skate America I think), when Petrova & Tikhonov lost to Pang & Tong despite winning the long.
As for Joe's suggestion on having regional judges -- I am against it. It's too hard to draw the boundaries. Example: any sane person would put Lithuania rather than Israel in the same camp as Russia, yet if there was judge collusion, it was definitely to vamp up the scores of Chait & Sakhnovsky, not Drobiazko & Vanagas.
As for Joe's suggestion on having regional judges -- I am against it. It's too hard to draw the boundaries. Example: any sane person would put Lithuania rather than Israel in the same camp as Russia, yet if there was judge collusion, it was definitely to vamp up the scores of Chait & Sakhnovsky, not Drobiazko & Vanagas.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Ptichka - I can agree with you if we live in a perfect world. Certainly, despite the fact that my barber an immigrant from Tashkent to the US still considers Moscow as a city he will always be associated with. Not that he likes Moscow but it was a time in the lives of many people. Similarly a former colleague from NovoSibersk(sp) enjoys his childhood in the former Soviet Union.Ptichka said:
The old culture does not die with a new republic nor with an immigration to another country. It has nothing to do with politics. It is a cultural thing. It is inbred. It is not meant to be disparaging to the decendants of the old USSR.
Hypothetically, but possible, that of the 15 random draw judges, seven are from former Soviet satellites, do you really think they will differ in the scores? And don't forget, these judges are about the same age or older and all from that soviet period. I'm not speaking of collusion. I'm speaking of the way they assess the culture of their youth from parents and from their civic teachings. We all are a product of our beginnings, but there is only 1 American judge; 1 French judge; 1 Japanese judge, and these three do not agree with each other. The judges from the former Soviet Union will agree with each other simply by cultural ties. Well, that is my rationale on why special Regional judging should be a factor in figure skating or any other judging sport.
I would like to ask what reasons you have for allowing as many eastern judges on a panel as being totally honest? Please - I am not speaking of collusion.
(Unfortunaley, we will never know the nationalities of the judges who are actually judging the events. that, too, was over ridden, but is still a hot topic. Would you be ok with revealing who the judges are?)
Cheers - Joe
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