The Split Jump and Michelle Kwan

Glacierskater · Sep 26, 2004

Ifs

Everyone is referring to IFS this month with a calendar. Have I missed something? I have a subscription, and I have been religiously checking Barnes and Noble to make sure I am not missing something, and NO IFS. Where are you all getting yours from? PLEASE, someone...

To answer my own question, it just cam in the mail today. Have not seen any split jumps in it.

Matt · Sep 26, 2004

I think MK is doing just fine with the falling leaf split jump---in fact, I'd love to see her take it and use it in combination with other MITF or even as an entrance into a jump, as opposed to the falling leaf-into-long spread eagle that she's been doing for years (that would a difficult entrance into a jump----that's gotta go to the GOE under CoP :laugh:

)

I don't know why many women don't do the Russian split jump---which, BTW, is in fact a move in ballet (though done slightly differently than the figure skating one, but the position is the same); perhaps it is because many women feel they simply can't get the same height or extension as either their male counterparts or someone like Sasha Cohen (although I don't particularly care for Sasha's Russian; IMO, it's too stretched out). AP McDonough had a particularly nice (and somewhat unusual) Russian Split/mohawk jump/3flip in her "Madame Butterfly" FP. As for men and the split jump, I think you need someone who has really got the flexibility to hit that split and really suspend it, someone along the lines of a Emanuel Sandhu/Shawn Sawyer/Rudy Gallindo type (even Stéphane)

I'm also a particular fan of the "double stag" jump, where both legs are bent in the air----Paul Wylie had a really nice one in "Mission:Impossible"; so did MK in "Dream of Desdemona"

SkateFan4Life · Sep 26, 2004

MasterB said:
I love to see a good split jump, but they are rare these days. Cohen had a beautiful one in the Swan progran done by Robin. One of the problems with that jump is that it is very difficult for some people to get the back leg as high as the front leg. Catherine Healy use to have a perfect one. Guys never do the split jump because it looks too girly. The Russian split seems more appropriate for the guys, Paul wiley had a great one. Also some skaters make the jump look heavy, when it shouldn't

Catherine Healy was a classically trained ballerina whose beautiful extensions lended themselves well to her split jumps, which were outstanding. Sasha Cohen was a trained gymnast and her wonderful extension comes to play with the split jumps. Paul Wylie's split jump was excellent. I remember Brian Boitano's split jumps as being high and very well extended.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 26, 2004

Matt said:
I don't know why many women don't do the Russian split jump---which, BTW, is in fact a move in ballet (though done slightly differently than the figure skating one, but the position is the same); perhaps it is because many women feel they simply can't get the same height or extension as either their male counterparts or someone like Sasha Cohen (although I don't particularly care for Sasha's Russian; IMO, it's too stretched out). AP McDonough had a particularly nice (and somewhat unusual) Russian Split/mohawk jump/3flip in her "Madame Butterfly" FP. As for men and the split jump, I think you need someone who has really got the flexibility to hit that split and really suspend it, someone along the lines of a Emanuel Sandhu/Shawn Sawyer/Rudy Gallindo type (even Stéphane)

I'm also a particular fan of the "double stag" jump, where both legs are bent in the air----Paul Wylie had a really nice one in "Mission:Impossible"; so did MK in "Dream of Desdemona"

Hey Matt. Indeed, the Russian split is done in ballet in choreography which calls for character dancing, i.e., the Chinese and Russian dances in Nutcracker, but you would never see a ballerina do it in Swan Lake or Sleeping Beauty. It's the traditional Grand Jete and the dancer is facing the wings while in a character dance, the dancer is doing a split jump a la Russe and is facing the audience.

A double stag jump? I would call a pas de chat. Am I correct?

Joe

Ladskater · Sep 26, 2004

Joesitz said:
Thanks for the pictures, Ladd. It shows the difference between the classical split and the Russian split. The Russian split does not have the body over the split. It has the fanny sticking out. The classical split has the body in complete alignment and the skater is facing in the direction he is going.

However, I disagree with you on the difficulty of the Russian split. A beautifully executed classic split jump is much more difficult to achieve. And don't forget Barbara Ann had a beautiful classic split jump.Joe

This explains in more detail the differences between the traditional split jumps and the Russian Split jump:

Split Jump
For a traditional split jump, the skater achieves a full 180° split position in the air. The left leg extends in front of the torso and the right leg lifts off the ice and stretches behind the body. This position duplicates the common forward split performed by cheerleaders and gymnasts on balance beam.

Russian Split Jump
To achieve a Russian split air position, the skater faces sideways and pikes slightly at the waist to lift both legs off the ice. He appears to sit in the air with his legs parted in a wide “V” shape. The further the legs separate, the more difficult and dramatic the jump. Generally, the hands reach toward the toes at the peak of the jump. The arms may also simply stretch out to the sides. Most often executed as a half-flip, the Russian split jump may be performed as a full flip or, in very rare cases, a half or full rotation lutz. A loop entrance is not used.

For me, the Russian Split jump was always the most difficult.

IDLERACER · Sep 27, 2004

SkateFan4Life said:
Paul Wylie's split jump was excellent.

Click on THIS for a picture.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 27, 2004

Idle -Excellent example of the Russian split. If we saw the back side of this picture we would see his fanny sticking out. Paul has turned his head in the direction he is going for effect.

Ladd - Cheerleaders do the Russian split and do it to the crowds. That's their job. The spread of the split varies among the ability of the people to stretch their legs. If you see the split from the side you will often see a V shape because that is as far as the person could stretch.

The classic split jump is called a grand jete and is a controlled split with flexibility.

Some dancers will sit on their split on the floor while warming up and then roll their back leg so that the toe will be pointing up like the front leg, and the fanny goes out. That whole thing is a good stretching exercise.

Joe

Mathman · Oct 1, 2004

What kind of a jump is THIS? :love:

For more pictures from this calendar, go to

http://www.figureskatingcalendar.ca/calendars/2005/index_e.cfm?CFID=327279&CFTOKEN=68966108

and click on the small pictures at the bottom.

Thanks to MZheng for posting a trail to this link on another thread.

Mathman

floskate · Oct 1, 2004

A double stag jump? I would call a pas de chat. Am I correct?

No a double stag doesn't really exist in dance terms. The jump you're referring to such as Kwans in DoD and also in Aranjuez would be called a double attitude leap - both legs bent. A pas de chat is a side leap from 5th position to 5th position leading with one leg closely followed by the other. The legs are turned out to the sides while the body faces front. Both legs bend then straighten in the air so the jump appears "cat" like. Hard to explain really. I hope you get the picture!!

Piel · Oct 1, 2004

Mathman said:
What kind of a jump is

THIS?

That would be.... PERFECTION IN MOTION :love:

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 1, 2004

floskate said:
No a double stag doesn't really exist in dance terms. The jump you're referring to such as Kwans in DoD and also in Aranjuez would be called a double attitude leap - both legs bent. A pas de chat is a side leap from 5th position to 5th position leading with one leg closely followed by the other. The legs are turned out to the sides while the body faces front. Both legs bend then straighten in the air so the jump appears "cat" like. Hard to explain really. I hope you get the picture!!

Absolutely, floskate. The pas de chat can not be reproduced on figure skates. A big difference between dance and figure skating is that movement to the side (think a procenium stage) is not so easy for figures skaters and for some of the ballet moves it is impossible for figure skaters.
Joe

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 1, 2004

Mathman said:
What kind of a jump is THIS?

For more pictures from this calendar, go to

http://www.figureskatingcalendar.ca/calendars/2005/index_e.cfm?CFID=327279&CFTOKEN=68966108 Mathman

That is the split I am talking about. It is the classic split. If you visualize it not in the air but on the floor, the fanny does not touch the floor. If one splits with front and back toes pointing in the air, you have the russian split and if you visualize it on the floor, one is sitting on the fanny.

And I agree with Piel, Michelle's split is perfection.

Joe

floskate · Oct 1, 2004

Actually it's not the classic position from a dance point of view. Many skaters are guilty of this in that they twist their hips to the side they are extending on at the back to acheive optimum extension. Thats fine by me and doesn't bother me in the least but from a dance perspective, in a spiral or split jump, the hips must remain square at all times.

Sorry -this sounds a little nitpicky but it's the way it is in dance. However in skating there is no doubt that MK has the best in the business!!!

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 1, 2004

floskate said:
Actually it's not the classic position from a dance point of view. Many skaters are guilty of this in that they twist their hips to the side they are extending on at the back to acheive optimum extension. Thats fine by me and doesn't bother me in the least but from a dance perspective, in a spiral or split jump, the hips must remain square at all times.

Sorry -this sounds a little nitpicky but it's the way it is in dance. However in skating there is no doubt that MK has the best in the business!!!

I agree, it is not a classic split jump if the hips are turned to the side but it is a Russian Split Jump, and that is my point. What I call the classic split jump is based on the grand jete where the hips are square to the direction the dancer/skater is headed. And yes MK's is correct for that particular split, but I believe Sasha has a beautifuly feminine Russian split which I rarely ever see as beautiful. JMO.

Joe

Matt · Oct 3, 2004

floskate said:
No a double stag doesn't really exist in dance terms. The jump you're referring to such as Kwans in DoD and also in Aranjuez would be called a double attitude leap - both legs bent. A pas de chat is a side leap from 5th position to 5th position leading with one leg closely followed by the other. The legs are turned out to the sides while the body faces front. Both legs bend then straighten in the air so the jump appears "cat" like. Hard to explain really. I hope you get the picture!!

Thanks, floskate, for helping out with the definition. And you're right; the proper ballet term for the jump would be a "double attitude" jump. In other types of dance, such as jazz and cheerleading, a lot of people simply refer to that particular jump or position as a "double stag" (as least my studio did---and I've heard the term elsewhere)

Also, if anyone out there is really interested in this kind of thing (like me

), the jump that MK does in DoD is technically what I would consider a "fouété double stag" or a "fouété double attitude". I don't know if it appears in classical ballet at all, but it's used a lot in jazz (and one of my favourite manoeuvres to perform

).
It takes off by sweeping one leg into the air, then jumping up and pivoting your body 1/2 turn with the leg you swept still held high so you flip over into an arabesque position (like a fouété jump, or the position you hit in a tour-jeté before you switch legs). In the "double stag" or "double attitude" version, however, when you pivot your body in the air, you bend both legs at the knees at the top of the jump.

Does this sound familiar to anyone or is there anyone out there who knows what I'm referrring to?

Kuchana · Oct 3, 2004

Joesitz said:
And yes MK's is correct for that particular split, but I believe Sasha has a beautifuly feminine Russian split which I rarely ever see as beautiful. JMO.

Joe

Isn't the Russian split easier though? Although that doesn't take away its beauty but since most people opt for the Russian one that's gotta say something.

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 3, 2004

Matt said:
Also, if anyone out there is really interested in this kind of thing (like me ), the jump that MK does in DoD is technically what I would consider a "fouété double stag" or a "fouété double attitude". I don't know if it appears in classical ballet at all, but it's used a lot in jazz (and one of my favourite manoeuvres to perform ).
It takes off by sweeping one leg into the air, then jumping up and pivoting your body 1/2 turn with the leg you swept still held high so you flip over into an arabesque position (like a fouété jump, or the position you hit in a tour-jeté before you switch legs). In the "double stag" or "double attitude" version, however, when you pivot your body in the air, you bend both legs at the knees at the top of the jump.

Does this sound familiar to anyone or is there anyone out there who knows what I'm referrring to?

Yup, it does appear in ballet, and usually, the male dancer does it as a 'coda' piece continuously in a circle around the stage. His leg positions in the air are optional. It's a rousing movement and when the height is there, the audiences are acknowleging the trick wildly before the moves are completed.

Kuchina - Yup, I would say the Russian split is easier - less stress on the stretch.

Joe

The Split Jump and Michelle Kwan

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