Instant Replay

SkateFan4Life · Sep 26, 2004

I would like to see skating judges have the opportunity to use instant replay to check any jumps and/or other moves that may be questionable to them. This would certainly help to resolve any issues concerning cheated jumps, two-footed landings, illegal lifts, etc. Sometimes you simply cannot see everything in a performance - everything goes by so fast.

Perhaps the judges could be given two or three minutes to use this option before posting their scores.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 26, 2004

SkateFan4Life said:
I would like to see skating judges have the opportunity to use instant replay to check any jumps and/or other moves that may be questionable to them. This would certainly help to resolve any issues concerning cheated jumps, two-footed landings, illegal lifts, etc. Sometimes you simply cannot see everything in a performance - everything goes by so fast.

Perhaps the judges could be given two or three minutes to use this option before posting their scores.

And they should be shown in several ways. Replays look different from different views. If one sees a lutz from the side view, it may be a flutz from the rear view. Sometimes, I think, a cameraman is paid to shoot the skater from the side view when a lutz is being executed because it is not easily detected as a flutz. :sheesh:

Joe

mpal2 · Sep 26, 2004

I thought the new judging system did allow judges to pull up elements in question. Of course, it is only from 1 viewpoint.

I also thought there was replay for the SP's before COP. At the very least, the judges could always look up to the jumbotron and catch the replays the fans in the stadium get.

thvudragon · Sep 26, 2004

SkateFan4Life said:
I would like to see skating judges have the opportunity to use instant replay to check any jumps and/or other moves that may be questionable to them. This would certainly help to resolve any issues concerning cheated jumps, two-footed landings, illegal lifts, etc. Sometimes you simply cannot see everything in a performance - everything goes by so fast.

Perhaps the judges could be given two or three minutes to use this option before posting their scores.

IIRC, the judge DO have instant replay.

TV

Ladskater · Sep 26, 2004

As far as I know the judges do have instant replay. I have often heard Debbi Wilkes comment - "the judges will have to look at that again...."

SkateFan4Life · Sep 27, 2004

Joesitz said:
And they should be shown in several ways. Replays look different from different views. If one sees a lutz from the side view, it may be a flutz from the rear view. Sometimes, I think, a cameraman is paid to shoot the skater from the side view when a lutz is being executed because it is not easily detected as a flutz. :sheesh:

Joe

Precisely. And the judges should be instructed to look at ALL of the jumps to verify that they were executed correctly. If that holds up the marks a minute or two, what's the big deal?

All judges at every major national and international competition should have the benefit of instant replay.

Remember the 2002 pairs bruhaha? NBC repeatedly (and I mean repeatedly) showed B & S's mistakes - especially his slip on their side-by-side falls.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 27, 2004

The judges sit in a row on one side of the arena. What they see comfortably is what happens on the ice directly in front of them. Lutzes are usually executed near the curve at either end of the arena. The back outside edge is quite clear but the roll over onto the inside edge is not always clear. A tape should show whether the skater actually took off from the back outside edge. Only from a shot from the rear of the skater can that be determined accurately.Not that it matters, the flutz is still judged as to whether the skater's inside edge was little or big. you figure.

Also there is the matter of rotation. We know that certain skaters have been branded as underrotators. But are they? Everyone underrotates a jump now and then but should they be branded without a clear showing of the error? A good tape can show whether such errors actually happen not only for those who have the reputation for it but for the 'stars' as well who also underrotate occasionally. And they should be penalized. Let's get the camera there from all angles. The third jump in a triple combo is generally underrotated but we are all so amazed at the combo that we just let it go by.

I am sure there are many other elements what should be shown on tape.

Joe

SkateFan4Life · Sep 28, 2004

Joesitz said:
The third jump in a triple combo is generally underrotated but we are all so amazed at the combo that we just let it go by.Joe

I think that Arakawa underrotated, or "cheated" on the rotation, one of her triple/
triple combinations at this year's Worlds. The instant replay clearly showed this
but the judges did not deduct from her scores. Of course, her overall program was so outstanding and so well skated that she deserved the winning scores.
IMHO, of course.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 29, 2004

I did see Shizuka cheat the last part of her triple combo in Dortmund, and I also saw Plushenko cheat his, too. I don't know if this is all the time so I am not branding anyone.

Joe

hockeyfan228 · Sep 29, 2004

SkateFan4Life said:
I think that Arakawa underrotated, or "cheated" on the rotation, one of her triple/
triple combinations at this year's Worlds. The instant replay clearly showed this
but the judges did not deduct from her scores. Of course, her overall program was so outstanding and so well skated that she deserved the winning scores.
IMHO, of course.

The judges at Dortmund gave full credit for most difficult jump attempts in both singles disciplines, not just Arakawa's.

SkateFan4Life · Oct 2, 2004

hockeyfan228 said:
The judges at Dortmund gave full credit for most difficult jump attempts in both singles disciplines, not just Arakawa's.

Now that's a problem, as far as I'm concerned. The judges might as well give every skater credit for "attempting" a quad, even if he or she lands on his fanny. After all, they tried to land the jump! :rolleye:

I thought the judges were supposed to deduct for errors - or at least not give credit for a successful jump when the jump was flawed. Silly me!

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 2, 2004

SkateFan4Life said:
Now that's a problem, as far as I'm concerned. The judges might as well give every skater credit for "attempting" a quad, even if he or she lands on his fanny. After all, they tried to land the jump! I thought the judges were supposed to deduct for errors - or at least not give credit for a successful jump when the jump was flawed. Silly me!

Totally agree! I, for one, am thoroughly confused about the concept of "attempted" jump or spin regardless if they 'tried' to land the jump or they slipped on the entrance to a spin. To me, a skater either does the jump or spin according to definition or is penalized for not doing the jump. What does a judge give an attempted triple axel which pops out? Boy, can this be a source of subliminal cheating by judges.

Joe

icenut84 · Oct 3, 2004

Ladskater said:
As far as I know the judges do have instant replay. I have often heard Debbi Wilkes comment - "the judges will have to look at that again...."

I think they have instant replay in real-time, but they don't get the slow-motion replay that we get on TV. Unfortunately, sometimes things like cheats are not easy to pick up unless you see it on slow-motion, so IMO, the judges SHOULD have slow-motion replay.

Kuchana · Oct 3, 2004

icenut84 said:
Unfortunately, sometimes things like cheats are not easy to pick up unless you see it on slow-motion, so IMO, the judges SHOULD have slow-motion replay.

I agree wholeheartedly with your suggestion. I believe that if a slow-motion replay was granted to the judges AND the judges used it to deduct points for skaters who cheat, it will emphasize to the skaters and everyone else the need to execute the jumps as correctly as possible and of course you won't see as many cheats as before. Plus I don't believe in the awarding points for "attempted" jumps. Isn't that akin to awarding a mistake?

SkateFan4Life · Oct 3, 2004

icenut84 said:
I think they have instant replay in real-time, but they don't get the slow-motion replay that we get on TV. Unfortunately, sometimes things like cheats are not easy to pick up unless you see it on slow-motion, so IMO, the judges SHOULD have slow-motion replay.

Excellent idea! The slow motion replay would make it crystal clear whether a jump was cheated, and would also probably show whether a lutz was actually a flutz. If the judges have access to this technology, they should be instructed to use it. No excuses for not seeing a mistake!

mzheng · Oct 3, 2004

icenut84 said:
I think they have instant replay in real-time, but they don't get the slow-motion replay that we get on TV. Unfortunately, sometimes things like cheats are not easy to pick up unless you see it on slow-motion, so IMO, the judges SHOULD have slow-motion replay.

I think in CoP, at least the Tech Specialist has the slow mo.

hockeyfan228 · Oct 3, 2004

mzheng said:
I think in CoP, at least the Tech Specialist has the slow mo.

The controller, the tech specialist, and the person who enters the data have access to slo mo replay -- two out of three votes wins after replay -- and if a judge protests the original call or valuation, the judge is able to watch the replay to argue his/her case after the skater finishes the program.

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 3, 2004

It was slo mo that proved Serena Williams should not have been penalized, but in Tennis, the refs don't have access to replay.

This proves my point, that the live spectators and judges and other officials are not always in a position to see errors in skating. Instant slo mo from all angles should be a must for the Technical staff as well as the judges.

If the rule on underrotation is to be enforced then catch that half and sometimes three quarter curve on the ice BEFORE a take off. This is what happens when on the last jump of a quad, triple, triple is attempted. Check out that last part of the triple combo not just the landing but the takeoff as well.

Joe

SkateFan4Life · Oct 4, 2004

Joesitz said:
This proves my point, that the live spectators and judges and other officials are not always in a position to see errors in skating. Instant slo mo from all angles should be a must for the Technical staff as well as the judges.

Joe

Absolutely, Joe. Instant slo mo doesn't lie. There simply cannot be an argument when the "evidence" is right before you! Bring on the slow motion cameras!!

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