skating careers

Re: skating careers

engrsktr:

If you are thinking of Emanuel Sandhu, that had nothing to do with Elvis still being on the Canadian Team. Sandhu was too unsteady and Skate Canada knew they could rely on Elvis to pull through. I don't think people give Elvis enough credit. What about Todd Eldredge? One does not hear any complaints about his longevity. Elvis is a great skater and was a real inspiration to his teammates as well as a great skating ambassador for Canada. Consider this - if Elvis had not made a comeback for another season Canada would have had no men to represent us in the Olympics. Sandhu dropped out at the last minute due to injury. On the other hand, Elvis (the comeback kid) skated his heart our for us. Enough said.

Ladskater

Re: skating careers

Why should a skater retire if they can still win? If they can beat the competitors without a 3/3, then maybe the competitors should work on their artistic ability. Why should a person ruin their body focusing on 3/3's, like Tara Lipinski, if they don't really need it?

I don't think Michelle is ready for the old - skaters home yet. She was fantastic this year. With Scott as her new coach, I think they have brought out new things in her. I certainly didn't feel like I was watching her do the same thing she's done over the years. She had <em><strong>more</strong></em> this year. More what I can't really explain. Just more.

I personally think it's way too much about jumps. Why is a harder jump more important than a beautiful layback or spiral? Why is a harder jump more important than great footwork or just beautiful stroking on the ice? Of course, there have to be jumps but why not reward skaters for perfection of some of these other things rather than just a harder jump?

I think people don't like it when someone dominates a sport. If the young skaters want to win, work on the things that will make them a winner.

Re: skating careers

Ladskater:

like i said before... I wasn't speaking of any one particular skater when I stated my opnion... elvis is one I would place in the category AS WELLL AS Todd Eldredge.... and you've made clear your intelligence of skating with your "clockwise/counterclockwise jumping" "information".........
enough said................

Re: skating careers

What about Sonja Henie? She was World champion ten times and the Olympic champion three times! And that was in the twenties and thirties - the early days of competitive skating. Then she launched a lucrative career by starting the first ice show and made several movies. Not bad for a little Norwegian girl, eh? I would say Sonja still holds the record for longevity in skating and still is figure skatings best known female skating star.


Ladskater



<img src="http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/96apr/96aprgifs/henie4.gif" style="border:0;"/>

THE GREAT SONJA HENIE

Re: skating careers

Pookie....

ok, I'll say this AGAIN at the risk of it being misinterpreted AGAIN.... it's not ALL about jumps...... it's not all about spins... it's not all about artistry either.......
it's about all of them........

HOWEVER...... I do think that pushing ones techincal merit is important..... and triple/triple combos do NOT always mean injury... especially when we are talking about a FULLY GROWN adult (remember Tara was trying the bigger triple/triples earlier and she wasn't fully grown.... Tara's injuries had to do with her still growing.........Michelle has been fully grown for a while now)........

"Why should a skater retire if they can still win?"

Interesting question.... Kristi could have stayed around for YEARS and still have won..... but she didn't ..... she had specific goals and she had simply accomplished them and had nothing to prove to herself...... so what does michelle, for example, have to prove to herself.... that is afterall why one competes.... competition is about proving you are better than your peers..... it's not about skating for yourself... if it was, one wouldn't have to go to actual competitions... one could just skate at one's home rink and be happy with what one accomplishes there....
So it IS about being better than the others.... michelle has proven that time and time again... so what is the deal? what's left..... is she sticking around because she wants that olympic gold?? probably..... but how desperate does that make one? everyone is quick to point out (since she hasn't won it) that the olympic gold medal isn't the "end all" of skating..... well you find me a skater that doesn't think so and I'll show you someone who is VERY secure within herself.... michelle isn't one of those people... she shows up faithfully EVERY year for 10 years..... I just believe that shows either a ton of personal insecurity, or an ego run amuck.... either way I wonder what happened to the athletes that could bow out gracefully with OR WITHOUT a medal...

"I personally think it's way too much about jumps. Why is a harder jump more important than a beautiful layback or spiral? Why is a harder jump more important than great footwork or just beautiful stroking on the ice? Of course, there have to be jumps but why not reward skaters for perfection of some of these other things rather than just a harder jump?"


well the answer to that question is simple.... there is no question that a layback and spiral (among other fundamentals) are important... but there are MANY people who can do a spiral like michelle or Sasha..... there are MANY people who can do a layback spin like Sarah..... there aren't MANY people who can do those elements PLUS the jumps.... it's a means to separate oneself from the pack - and the pack is REALLY large...! I've seen skaters who are just as beautiful on the ice if not MORE beautiful than michelle but aren't recognized because they can't do the HARDER jumps.....hence the jumps tend t be important once you reach that certain level where the basic skating is the same amongst competitors.... and if you do the jumps WELL, they add to the program and can accentuate it...! the jumps can add spark and a certain exclamation point to the program.... if there is a skater that can perform the jumps well with pretty good artistry, then I don't care HOW many jumps are in the program... if they fit, they fit......
I mean michelle used to be known as a jumping bean with no real artistry... then she grew in that department AND YET KEPT ALL the jumps.... so one can't say that jumping ruins a program....

I don't dislike skaters that dominate..... I didn't dislike peggy fleming... or katarina witt.... or scott hamilton.... they dominated..... but they also knew when to move on....
So if the young skaters want to win they should work on what would make them winners.... ?
so if jumping doesn't matter that much to you - how do you judge such a thing.... how can one choose between sarah, sasha and michelle if the jumping is a non factor..... ??? I would put sasha AHEAD of michelle on just her stroking, spins, spirals and positions alone!
the thing is is that they wouldn't win simply because of michelle's name and reputation... the sport is judged - by humans - who have favorites and those they dislike - just like all of you...... it's been the pattern since the beginning and it has been said in this forum that a young skater has to pay her dues - if that's not favoritism, I don't know WHAT is!

I'm sure my view will be drastically unpopular because a lot of people here seem to be michelle kwan fans - it's not that I am not a fan but like I said, I don't have a favorite skater - so what I have said probably won't be taken with a grain of salt...

Re: skating careers

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I would put sasha AHEAD of michelle on just her stroking, spins, spirals and positions alone! [/quote]

Sasha does have great spins, positions, etc. There is no denying that. I was admiring her flexibility as I was watching exhibitions today. However, she has a problem with consistency. That's why Michelle wins. So there is where the jumps come in. Michelle's 3/2 beats Sasha's 3/3. :lol:

Re: skating careers

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I would put sasha AHEAD of michelle on just her stroking, spins, spirals and positions alone! [/quote]

Ah.. I kept asking if there are specific skaters and competitions in mind, and it took > 40 messages for that to be spelled out. Of course GS poet Freddy intuited this one long ago.

At least now we have some technical stuff to talk about stroking, spins, and spirals.

I don't agree on Sasha ahead in stroking, and spirals. There are other factors like edge quality, speed, ice coverage etc...

Now there are specific skaters being named, the next step is to find out what competitions are in question and look up ISU rules to back up the claim.

:evil: Michelle caused Kostner to fall on some of her jumps. What if Kostner lands all her elements, she should be the gold medalist. Wait, we don't live in a what if world.

<span style="color:blue;font-size:medium;">Shelly 5+3+1, trolls none ~ Freddy</span>

<span style="color:red;font-size:medium;">Congrats Michelle, Elena, and Fumie</span>

internet shrinks

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>well you find me a skater that doesn't think so and I'll show you someone who is VERY secure within herself.... michelle isn't one of those people... she shows up faithfully EVERY year for 10 years..... I just believe that shows either a ton of personal insecurity, or an ego run amuck[/quote]


Please spare me the psychoanalysis of skaters inner psyche. It tells me nothing about the skater, just the poster's opinion thats all.

Re: skating careers

engrsktr: ".... Kristi could have stayed around for YEARS and still have won..... but she didn't ....."

I'd infer from all your posts so far that those world or oly champions in the early 90's would have kept winning if they had stayed. The majority would disagree with you. Easier said than done. How many elite skaters can continuously stay competitive mentally and physically and most of all maintaining their skills through it all especially in a sport like figure skating and in the triple-jump era? Seriously how many?

Even Michelle form time and time again lost the competitive fire in her only to fortunately have it back at the most crucial moments. And how many of those early 90's champions could have kept up with Michelle's 25 6-triple and 11 7-triple programs since 1995 besides her great presentation skills? Except Midori who could still outjump all the current girls, I dare say none. But Midori would lose out in presentation. As for Kristi, to match Michelle's consistent 6-7 triples, the most she could have done is 6 triples and she couldn't have possibly consistently landed 3S to make 7 triples or the 3L/3T to up her ante. As for presentation, I'd leave to the majority to decide if Kristi could beat Michelle. So, I'm afraid your statement is highly debatable and many would easily disagree with you. Michelle doesn't get respect from Dick, Peggy, Dorothy, Kristi herself, Katarina and the likes and her peers for nothing. They know damn well in this sport, it's freaking difficult to keep winning in 6, 7 or 10 years. I sincerely believe you aren't bashing but you inadvertently downplay Michelle's longevity at the top in this sport.

Re: skating careers

engrsktr : "the thing is is that they wouldn't win simply because of michelle's name and reputation... the sport is judged - by humans - who have favorites and those they dislike - just like all of you...... it's been the pattern since the beginning and it has been said in this forum that a young skater has to pay her dues - if that's not favoritism, I don't know WHAT is!"

So you are implying Michelle has been winning those competitions by reputation? Could you care to qualify your claim? In what world and national competitions do you think she was unfairly awarded the gold medals? I can't dispute with you because I know little of the sport. I just want other posters here to discuss with you if your protest is founded. I thought some posters suggested the judges couldn't wait to crown another skater especially Sasha at 2003 Nationals. Some thought she was held up over Ann Patrice. What do you think of that?

"I'm sure my view will be drastically unpopular because a lot of people here seem to be michelle kwan fans - it's not that I am not a fan but like I said, I don't have a favorite skater - so what I have said probably won't be taken with a grain of salt..."

Your view is your view, I respect that. I'm a huge Michelle fan but I find your view lacks logic. I don't think only Michelle fans would disagree with you especially on her longevity. My inference of your posts is:

1. Michelle wins by reputation and she's taking advantage of her position to keep winning, hence getting in the way of other young skaters who could've become champions had Michelle retired.

2. World and Oly champions in the early 90's could've kept winning had they stayed. But they didn't because they knew when to move on and Michelle doesn't because she just wants those medals and she knows she can as she can bet on her reputation to help her pull through.

3. Michelle is guilty of not pushing the envelope technically because she doesnt need it to win, afterall she can win by her reputation.

Do you hnonestly think only Michelle fans would disagree with you?

Re: skating careers

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What about Todd Eldredge? One does not hear any complaints about his longevity.[/quote]
Don't be so sure of that.

Kwan's reputation holds her up, huh? Where the hell was that reputation last February? It sure was needed.

Re: skating careers

Ummmmm, maybe some people just enjoy competing? Not everyone who continues to compete "has something to prove" or has an ego problem. Some people really love competing. And whether it's the emotional focus, or the adrenaline rush, or (Oh, no!) they're trying to prove something to themselves, IMHO, they should keep on until they don't want to anymore. If I were an up-and-coming competitor in ANY sport, I'd hate to have the press and fans speculating that I'd never have won if the veterans hadn't been pushed out!

Re: skating careers

Engrsktr, I have to thank you for starting this up again. Great entertainment. We haven't had a good old 300 post thread about why I hate/love Michelle for, oh, three or four weeks now. (We had to take a few days off to enjoy Worlds.)

As for me, I love this girl. What amazes me most about the Michelle phenomenon is how she continues year after year to dominate every aspect of the sport of figure skating. She dominates the sport when she wins, she dominates the sport when she loses, she dominates the sport when she does a triple-triple, she dominates the sport when she doesn't do a triple-triple. She dominates equally the hearts of her fans and the minds of her detractors. As this very thread attests, she dominates every discussion of figure skating whatever.

There have been a lot of complaints about this by the non-Kwans on this board. Why does every topic have to be about Michelle? Why does every new poster feel that the first order of business is to weigh in, pro or con, about Michelle? Michelle, Michelle, Michelle. As for me, I have tried to participate in discussions about Sasha, Sarah, Fumie, Irina, Elena, Watanabe and Kido, and all my other favorites. But no matter what the original subject, sooner or later the pro-Kwans and the anti-Kwans are at it again. (OK, I'm guilty, too :lol: ) Like Tiger Woods in golf, it just doesn't seem possible to say the words "figure skating" without saying "Michelle Kwan."

In fact, the Kwan phenomenon is so well marked that when a new person such as yourself announces that you don't really have a favorite skater, everyone immediately starts thinking, oh yeah, well I bet you have a <em>least</em> favorite one. :lol:

But then, too, I can understand it. FIVE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS. Wow! I know it's hard to accept, but there it is. Sometimes, even in figure skating, reality is hard to ignore.

Anyway, I'm glad to have another Kristi fan on the board. She's my favorite, too, along with Michelle.

Mathman

Re: skating careers

As to what Michelle improved this year:
1. The speed, extension, and freedom of her skating (refer to posts by rgirl explaining what is different about Michelle this year).
2. Jump mechanics. Her lutz is better than it was, higher and not flutzed slightly as it used to be sometimes. She needs to do this going back and working on basics to do either a 3lutz3toe or 3lutz3loop reliably. And also for Code of Points issues for next years GP events.
3. Speed of spins, especially her camel spin and the amount of revs and speed that she gets in her heart layback.

Why didn't she present new 3/3's or 3 axels before? Partially because as everyone else has said, until just lately she didn't need more than a 3toe/3toe. But also because she was never landing the other 3/3's or the 3axel 85% or more of the time in practice, or whatever percentage was Frank Carroll's guideline for allowing a skater to add a jump to their program. Last year she was practicing and landing some of the time a 3 lutz 3 loop. She tried it at skate Canada and muffed it.

Also, unlike in the 90's, skaters have to skate 2 LP's at worlds rather than just one, and the qualifier counts 20% of the score. And you don't include your jump in the SP if your jump is only 85% then your chances of missing the jump in one or other of the two skates is now over 27%. Furthermore, in the current format, to win , you need to be one or two in both the SP and QR or have the assistance of another competitor beating your nemesis. For example, Fumie was 1st in her qualifier and 3rd in the short, coming into the LP with 2.2 placing points. (1*.2+3*.3)*2. If she beat Michelle in the LP and no one else did, Fumie would be still be overall 2nd, because Michelle had only 1 point coming in and would have 3 overall vs Fumie's 3.2. Similarly, this is why Sasha coming in in 4th place beat Fumie coming in 3rd place in the LP but still came in 4th overall. Sasha had accumulated too many points from the qualifier and the SP.

The risk is now a big, big risk for doing a jump that is not completely mastered vs. in the 1990's.

In the 90's system, where there was only the SP and LP, the lady in the top 3 after the SP who won the LP could win the night if she won the LP. Now that isn't so.

So Michelle had to go back to basics to even have a hope of landing 3/3's with consistency enough to still win a World's.
Since she has done the prep work this year, it will be interesting to see what she decides to do next year and whether she adds higher counting jumps.

dpp

Re: skating careers

ok this thread is entirely too long - mathman you are a genius...

With that I will say one more thing to clarify my point and I'm done...... I didn't think I'd be starting WW3 on this thing...

Here goes..

throughout skating history there has been this idea of "paying your dues"... which according to most of you shouldn't exist as you keep saying "if the young ones want to compete then they should do what they need to do to win".... well easier said than done. even dick button has talked about people waiting in the wings for another skater to retire.... I'm sorry but that kind of favoritism is out there...
and it's not just with michelle - it's happened MANY times before... it happens on the local circuit.... I think we'd all agree it's not fair.

I contest that if there is a younger (not in age) skater on the scene that skates as well as the veteran, I can guarantee you the veteran will most likely win when it comes down to it. Maybe it's because the judges are more familiar with the skater simply because she has been around a long time. I don't know. My point was simply this - I think sometimes it IS unfair for a veteran skater to stick around after having accomplished so many things..... not because I don't like the skater and not because I love the skater........... but I think that especially RECENTLY like within the last few years and not necessarily in the world championships that michelle has been and will continue to be held up a little more than one would like. It doesn't necessarily mean they will hold her up so she can WIN the competition but they would do it enough to keep her in it. I just tend to think it's unfair.....
and it has happened before - not just with michelle but look at some others..... but it is more evident and more prevalent with someone who has been around as long as michelle.....
and I know this opinion will be unpopular ( I keep saying that because it's true), but I just would like people to keep an open mind while watching the skating and not get too carried away with the hype.....

As far as the point that people will make where she just likes to compete... how can that be when she says she skates for herself.... ? I would much rather she just say she wants to win the olympics than not.... more power to her for actually saying it.... and I know everyone here would like her to.... that's a whole other thread that I don't want to get into because I know everyone of her fans will take it personally.
I don't buy the "I just like to skate" act.... she's been around long enough to fulfill that... I would much rather she just tell the truth.

Honestly, I'm sorry to put you all through the "psychoanalysis" and what not..... I was simply trying to get to a root discussion.... but there are a lot of BIG fans here who wouldn't dream of it and I didn't realize it...and that's ok.... I mean I don't want to get your ganders up and all that.... I didn't want any of this to be taken as a personal affront like it seems to have been to many of you (hence the personal attacks)..... I just wanted to get a REAL honest discussion.... not as a particular skater's fan or enemy...... just as people who like skating......

Re: skating careers

Doris, you raised some interesting points. First, about the scoring system requiring a more cautious approach to the qualifying round as well as to the short program. It has always been the mantra that "you can't win in the short program, but you can lose." It has been lamented that this forces skaters to hold back in the SP -- do a secure triple-double instead of a risky triple-triple and blow your chances before you begin.

If you apply the same reasoning to the qualifying round, but then say you are going to upgrade to the harder combination for the LP, then you have to prepare two somewhat different versions of the same program. I don't know whether that compromises the "muscle memory" thing or not.

I remember at 2000 worlds Michelle was in third place after finishing only second in the qualifying round and third (IIRC) in the short. So even after a wonderful LP (yet another of those "career bests," complete with a roof-raising triple toe-triple toe that looked like it surprized, and certainly delighted, even her :lol: ), Michelle still needed help from Irina to beat Maria (both of whom gave uninspired performances on that occasion).

BTW, one reason that that event sticks in my mind, besides the performance itself, is the fact that if ever the much dreaded "Soviet bloc" wanted to manipulate the judging, here was a golden opportunity. Just place Maria a notch ahead of Irina and Michelle's toast. So I thought it was cool that they judged what they saw and not what they expected or perhaps wanted.

The second point is about the new proposed "points-per-element" judging system. It is by no means clear to me that this will favor big jumps, fancy combos and triple Axels at the expence of other skating elements. Besides jumps, skaters can earn base points as well as bonus points for spins, spirals, footwork, etc. Furthermore, paralleling the "presentation score," there will be points awarded in five "artistic" areas including choreography, "musicality" and something along the lines of selling the program to the audience (?!)

In fact, with a possible 10 points in each of these five areas, this aspect of the score could be crucial (I think they are projecting maybe 150 points total for an good performance by the top people).

At the risk of saying something nice about Speedy, I actually look forward to seeing how this works when they try it out next year. (Assuming that the WSF hasn't taken over by then. :lol: )

Mathman

Re: skating careers

Engrsktr, the point about old codgers being held up, thus making it harder for the new kids on the block to get to the top, is certainly incontestible (pre-event favorite Plushenko in the SP in Salt Lake City, for instance).

But that isn't skating, that's life. Right now it's, "I wish Michelle would abdicate so Sasha can win something," but in a few years it will be, "Why oh why won't Sasha get out of the way of Bebe Liang (or Bebe Liang's little sister)."

Everybody has to go though their apprenticeship, complaining all the while about how unfair it is. Then a few years later, when the tables are turned, hmmm, not such a bad system as I thought.

I for one (as an old college professor) am quite glad <strong>now</strong> about the tenure system. Got to keep these punk assistant professors in line somehow.

Anyway, Michelle has earned her place at the top. If anyone wants to beat her -- well, they have to beat her.

Mathman

Re: skating careers

As for holding up the old guard, I really think you would have to include Viki and Irina in that same assumption. They have been around for quite a while.

But to get back to Engskatrs point, I believe <em><strong>presence</strong></em> has not been mentioned. When Irina or Michelle just take to the ice - before they even do a three turn - their presence is all at once a 'sit up' for the viewer and more than likely for the judges. If they skate up to that expectation, then indeed they are valid contenders.

Other <em><strong>seasoned</strong></em> skaters must execute a routine without faults and, of course, without falls. When they do, they will acquire that certain <em>'je ne sais quoi' presence</em> in due course. Until then, it doesn't seem apropo to mention one skater (anyone) who has a better this or that in terms of "winning". What counts in the last analysis is the whole package.

In the case of Michelle, I agree there are many technical elements that other skaters do better and they are usually awarded in the Technical Mark.

Joe

It is not for sale

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><strong>I don't buy</strong> the "I just like to skate" act.... she's been around long enough to fulfill that... I would much rather she just tell the truth. [/quote]

<strong>It is not for sale</strong>, so consider MK's "I just like to skate" as the beautiful field lilies growing wild in the spring time. It is not for sale, for those who appreciate her they can stop to ponder and enjoy, for those who don't care for field lilies, they can just simply walk on by.

What I object is for posters who knows <strong>nothing</strong> personally about skaters to psychoanalyze and pathologize the skaters. The other side of the coin of "I would much rather she just tells the truth" is calling her a liar? In addition to the insecurity, ego runs amuck!!!

I have consistently object to the practice of pathologizing skaters and posters. Someone here said Weiss has "narcissistic personality disorder" once, and I screamed about it, so my peeve here is not Kwan specific.

<span style="color:red;font-size:medium;">Congrats Fumie</span>

Re: It is not for sale

Engrsktr, I have to support emiC on this one. I ask you to read the following quotes from your posts over the last few days and ask yourself dispassionately if these reflect the objectivity that you claim, or if it comprises instead disingenuous innuendo and outright malevolence.

“She says she loves to compete, and part of that concept is challenging oneself - but she hasn't done that. Despite her lackluster technical performances ... she still receives comparable scores to other skaters who perform better technically.... and it's not because of the quality of her elements - others have just as good if not better quality but aren't being judged accordingly.”

“Kristi was a VERY smart skater - she knew when she needed the big combinations, and when she did she did them....That's the difference between Kristi and Michelle.”

“I don't think falling on a triple/triple combination would humiliate anyone... especially Michelle since her embarrassment at nationals in 1997 was probably as bad as it could get.”

“She didn't come through when she was challenged the most (hence her silver medals)!”

“Wow... I guess I pushed some buttons there.... a lot of pent up aggression I guess....”

“Michelle wouldn't be where she is right now if she had had to do them [school figures] like those before her....”

“Yes, Michelle has landed way more triple/triple combos than anyone of the previous skaters I mentioned..... but that's only because she's been around for SO long!”

“To those who have been so close-minded and took my comments personally I'm sorry that you feel that way.”

“Is she sticking around because she wants that Olympic gold?? Probably..... but how desperate does that make one?”

“I just believe that shows either a ton of personal insecurity, or an ego run amuck.... either way I wonder what happened to the athletes that could bow out gracefully.”

“I don't buy the "I just like to skate" act.... she's been around long enough to fulfill that... I would much rather she just tell the truth.”

Mathman