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Thread: objectively speaking

  1. #1
    engrsktr
    Guest

    objectively speaking


    ok first I would like to say thank you to all that replied - there were some very interesting responses to the opinion I posed.
    On to Michelle....
    I am not in any way "bashing" her skating. It is true - she is consistent and confident in her skating. She rarely misses. Her fundamental technique is wonderful (obviously, or she wouldn't be doing all the triples she does), and her artistry to many is outstanding.
    Nor am I saying that triple/triple combos make the skater -not by any means. However, when looking at a skater like Michelle, one can say (and it has been said right here on this message board) that she has brilliant technique, etc. If this is the case, I just wonder why that technique hasn't translated into an triple/triple on a consistent basis? She is old enough and her technique is solid enough to where this particular combo wouldn't hurt her body (as was stated in another reply). And if triple/triples are not needed to win a competition anymore (at least in some capacity to boost the score), then how can one argue that the skating over the last 10 years hasn't waned technically?? If Debi, Kristi and Midori and Nancy were completing them in the late eighties/early to mid 90's, why are they not in evidence more so today from the one major player that could truly use them to show her true technical prowess - aka Michelle? As far as Tara and Irina needed the triple/triples, why did Michelle not have one when she needed one the most - in competition with these two fabulous athletes? THAT'S being a competitor and she didn't come through when she was challenged the most (hence her silver medals)! I just truly believe that if you are sound technically and are a smart skater, you should have a triple/triple in your repertoire regardless of if you need it that particular year or not. It's like putting the stamp on your product!

  2. #2
    Verbalgirl77
    Guest

    objectively speaking


    Michelle did have a broken bone in the 1998 season, so I completely understand why she didn't want to put stress on that foot during an Olympic season. The shape she was in, we were lucky she was able to skate at all considering she had just gotten out of a cast.

    I feel that regardless of what Michelle did in 2002 Worlds (unless she did a 3A or something) that competition was for Irina's to win or lose. Michelle did do a 3-3 in qualifying, but it didn't really boost her tech scores in a way that would have put her ahead of Irina in the tech marks. Irina was also getting very high artistic marks as well last season. I think Michelle just wanted to focus on ending the 2002 season with 3 nice, clean programs after what happened at SLC. She certainly wasn't
    'defeated' at Worlds. I just think Irina had her best skate in a long time at that competition, far superior than her SLC FS. I think Michelle ended the season on a good note even if she didn't win the event.

    I also wonder what happened to Irina's 3-3's over the years, and why she hasn't landed them, but that's another story.

    As far as the 'decline' of 3-3's, I prefer 100% to see consistent skating minus the falls than to watch the splatfests of a decade ago when everyone was falling all over the place trying to do 6-7 triples. Give me consistency any day.

  3. #3
    engrsktr
    Guest

    Re: objectively speaking


    I agree with you - consistency is key - but if you have the skill like Michelle has, there is no reason why it shouldn't be done, especially when she DOES need to do them.
    As far as Michelle having been in a WALKING cast, it wasn't that drastic as far as her conditioning and technique... you don't lose that kind of skill in a few weeks of part time off....


  4. #4
    mathman444
    Guest

    Re: objectively speaking


    Engrsktr, I don't know about the past, but it will be interesting to me to see if we are about to see a big "growth spurt" on the technical side of ladies figure skating in the near future. After a decade's absence, all of a sudden not one but two ladies land the triple Axel at Skate America. Plus some younger skaters in Japan, plus the first ladies quad! I think that there will be exiting times ahead!

    Mathman

  5. #5
    engrsktr
    Guest

    Re: objectively speaking


    To be honest I hope we do see a spurt.... yes skating isn't all about the jumps... but I take exception to the fact that most would like to really downplay them... I disagree.. I think the tricks are very important.... without them, it would be ice dancing.......

  6. #6
    Verbalgirl77
    Guest

    Re: objectively speaking


    I wonder if the young jumpers will start a trend with the veterans, forcing them to pull out all the stops, like Sasha starting to try her quad again. I think a lot of the reason the 3A was abandoned was a lot of skaters thought, if no one else is doing it, why should I? Even though I think Irina & Maria had done 3A's they didn't see a need to risk doing it and falling.

    Now we might start to see a rise in that again.

  7. #7
    engrsktr
    Guest

    Re: objectively speaking


    I don't want anyone to take what I'm saying as a massive push for jumps and nothing else.... that's untrue.... I just know that the jumps are what make singles skating what it is..... it sets the great skaters apart from the everyday skater.... So jumps and spins are VERY important.. it is an art AND a sport....

  8. #8
    Verbalgirl77
    Guest

    Re: objectively speaking


    <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As far as Michelle having been in a WALKING cast, it wasn't that drastic as far as her conditioning and technique... you don't lose that kind of skill in a few weeks of part time off....[/quote]

    I do agree, I might have made it sound a little more serious than it actually was. But if I'm not mistaken, I think the fracture was actually caused by a 3-toe jump. If it was, I could see why she would be wary of doing 3-toes that season, particularly a 3t-3t combo. Which isn't to say she couldn't have tried a 3s-3l or something else. I'm just saying the 3t-3t might have been a little too 'iffy' at that time.

  9. #9
    engrsktr
    Guest

    Re: objectively speaking


    I'm sure michelle could have pulled off a triple salchow/triple loop combo or something of the sort.... it's just a matter of pushing oneself.... all these skaters say they want to do the best they can do, that it's not about the medal or winning... if that's the case, then why do we not see Michelle push herself to get that triple/triple consistently ready for competition.....??? I just don't understand....

  10. #10
    realistic51
    Guest

    ugh-jumps


    Yes if you take out the jumps it's ice dancing. Well, let's see...some of these skaters who are doing 3/3s and 3axels ought to learn basic skating skills. Then when you have that down, start learning to skate WITH your music instead of AT your music. Then, after that, put your jumps in...but don't frontload your program. Let me see how well you last with your jumps spread through the program. Oh, and practice your edging and spins while you're at it.

    Look, jumps are important. "Tricks" are NOT figure skating. Sure, I believe Michelle will need a 3/3 next year. Guess what? She was practicing 3/3s up until Nationals when she suffered a minor hip injury for doing so. Guess what? She decided not to risk her health. Guess what? She won Nationals and Worlds.

    So over the summer after the COI tour, she'll probably start working them again. Since she has stated she believes 3/3s will be necessary in competition I think she will do what she needs to do.

    Other skaters will need to become consistent with their programs, or have more than just jumping skills in their LP next year because they may get higher technical scores, but they are neglecting their spins, edging, spirals, etc. There's more to this SPORT than just JUMPING. Jumping did NOT make this a SPORT in the beginning and it shouldn't now.

  11. #11
    engrsktr
    Guest

    Re: ugh-jumps


    wow... I guess I pushed some buttons there.... a lot of pent up aggression I guess....
    In using the term "tricks" I meant spins and jumps in general.... I think I can take that latitude..

    by the way, jumping was VERY important in the beginning... Sonja Henie wasn't the 10 time world champion for skating in circles.... in fact, her edework wasn't THAT stellar.... but she did try the big "tricks" (if I may?).... fast spins... and an axel for a lady???? Someone shoot me! The end of skating has come!

    I'm sorry but when they abolished school figures, skating became all about jumps and spins.... if you want skaters to be able to skate then start at the beginning.... basic skating skills are figures.... and Michelle wouldn't be where she is right now if she had had to do them like those before her....

    Jumps were a HUGE part of the sport in the beginning and continue to be this day..........

  12. #12
    Verbalgirl77
    Guest

    Re: ugh-jumps


    <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm sorry but when they abolished school figures, skating became all about jumps and spins.... if you want skaters to be able to skate then start at the beginning.... basic skating skills are figures.... and Michelle wouldn't be where she is right now if she had had to do them like those before her....[/quote]

    I guess it would depend on how you compare those skills to all of the current ladies. Michelle may not be Trixie Schuba, but I think her basics in that sense are quite good, and I'm not sure there's a skater out there who would be better than Michelle in that area to prevent her from being where she is right now. There isn't a way to measure that nowadays, I suppose.

    It would be fun if there was though, just to see how things in the last 4 Olympics would have ended up if figures were still a factor.

  13. #13
    engrsktr
    Guest

    Re: ugh-jumps


    I am not saying that figures always make a superb freeskater... however, they do add a LOT to the skater as a whole.... there is a big difference to me between the skaters of today and those even at the end of the figures legacy....
    figures promote control, precision, and bodily awareness.... I used to hate them when I had to do them... but now that i look back on it there is an inherent fundamentalism that goes along with them..... I think they are missed today.... greatly...

  14. #14
    realistic51
    Guest

    jumps/figures


    Well, Sonja Henie did have her "tricks" (I despise that word because that's not accurate). And that's fine. But the fact remains, jumping was not "all that" when figure skating was accepted as an Olympic sport. What I meant was that JUMPING didn't MAKE figure skating a sport but it is an integral part naturally. However I would like to see jumps limited in a free skate.

    I will just agree to disagree with you because you're right, I am basically against a program frontloaded or loaded even with jumps and absolutely nothing else.

  15. #15
    Joesitz
    Guest

    Re: jumps/figures


    It's not just the lst place for Michelle, it's her presence as well as her consistency in the tricks that she does.

    Tara knew how to beat her with the 3/3 loop. I'm not so sure that will do it again. Her competitors need something. 3/3s are fine but they are not enough (Tara had moxy). A Michelle competitor needs presence. One who takes to the ice and says 'I can win this'. At the moment, there isn't anyone, but there could be.

    Michelle has it. For heavens sake, some other lady should easily get the idea of beautiful skating and not just tricks!

    Beautiful skating does matter.

    Joe

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