objectively speaking | Golden Skate

objectively speaking

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engrsktr

Guest
objectively speaking

ok first I would like to say thank you to all that replied - there were some very interesting responses to the opinion I posed.
On to Michelle....
I am not in any way "bashing" her skating. It is true - she is consistent and confident in her skating. She rarely misses. Her fundamental technique is wonderful (obviously, or she wouldn't be doing all the triples she does), and her artistry to many is outstanding.
Nor am I saying that triple/triple combos make the skater -not by any means. However, when looking at a skater like Michelle, one can say (and it has been said right here on this message board) that she has brilliant technique, etc. If this is the case, I just wonder why that technique hasn't translated into an triple/triple on a consistent basis? She is old enough and her technique is solid enough to where this particular combo wouldn't hurt her body (as was stated in another reply). And if triple/triples are not needed to win a competition anymore (at least in some capacity to boost the score), then how can one argue that the skating over the last 10 years hasn't waned technically?? If Debi, Kristi and Midori and Nancy were completing them in the late eighties/early to mid 90's, why are they not in evidence more so today from the one major player that could truly use them to show her true technical prowess - aka Michelle? As far as Tara and Irina needed the triple/triples, why did Michelle not have one when she needed one the most - in competition with these two fabulous athletes? THAT'S being a competitor and she didn't come through when she was challenged the most (hence her silver medals)! I just truly believe that if you are sound technically and are a smart skater, you should have a triple/triple in your repertoire regardless of if you need it that particular year or not. It's like putting the stamp on your product!
 
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Verbalgirl77

Guest
objectively speaking

Michelle did have a broken bone in the 1998 season, so I completely understand why she didn't want to put stress on that foot during an Olympic season. The shape she was in, we were lucky she was able to skate at all considering she had just gotten out of a cast.

I feel that regardless of what Michelle did in 2002 Worlds (unless she did a 3A or something) that competition was for Irina's to win or lose. Michelle did do a 3-3 in qualifying, but it didn't really boost her tech scores in a way that would have put her ahead of Irina in the tech marks. Irina was also getting very high artistic marks as well last season. I think Michelle just wanted to focus on ending the 2002 season with 3 nice, clean programs after what happened at SLC. She certainly wasn't
'defeated' at Worlds. I just think Irina had her best skate in a long time at that competition, far superior than her SLC FS. I think Michelle ended the season on a good note even if she didn't win the event.

I also wonder what happened to Irina's 3-3's over the years, and why she hasn't landed them, but that's another story.

As far as the 'decline' of 3-3's, I prefer 100% to see consistent skating minus the falls than to watch the splatfests of a decade ago when everyone was falling all over the place trying to do 6-7 triples. Give me consistency any day.
 
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engrsktr

Guest
Re: objectively speaking

I agree with you - consistency is key - but if you have the skill like Michelle has, there is no reason why it shouldn't be done, especially when she DOES need to do them.
As far as Michelle having been in a WALKING cast, it wasn't that drastic as far as her conditioning and technique... you don't lose that kind of skill in a few weeks of part time off....
 
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mathman444

Guest
Re: objectively speaking

Engrsktr, I don't know about the past, but it will be interesting to me to see if we are about to see a big "growth spurt" on the technical side of ladies figure skating in the near future. After a decade's absence, all of a sudden not one but two ladies land the triple Axel at Skate America. Plus some younger skaters in Japan, plus the first ladies quad! I think that there will be exiting times ahead!

Mathman
 
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engrsktr

Guest
Re: objectively speaking

To be honest I hope we do see a spurt.... yes skating isn't all about the jumps... but I take exception to the fact that most would like to really downplay them... I disagree.. I think the tricks are very important.... without them, it would be ice dancing.......
 
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Verbalgirl77

Guest
Re: objectively speaking

I wonder if the young jumpers will start a trend with the veterans, forcing them to pull out all the stops, like Sasha starting to try her quad again. I think a lot of the reason the 3A was abandoned was a lot of skaters thought, if no one else is doing it, why should I? Even though I think Irina & Maria had done 3A's they didn't see a need to risk doing it and falling.

Now we might start to see a rise in that again.
 
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engrsktr

Guest
Re: objectively speaking

I don't want anyone to take what I'm saying as a massive push for jumps and nothing else.... that's untrue.... I just know that the jumps are what make singles skating what it is..... it sets the great skaters apart from the everyday skater.... So jumps and spins are VERY important.. it is an art AND a sport....
 
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Verbalgirl77

Guest
Re: objectively speaking

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As far as Michelle having been in a WALKING cast, it wasn't that drastic as far as her conditioning and technique... you don't lose that kind of skill in a few weeks of part time off....[/quote]

I do agree, I might have made it sound a little more serious than it actually was. :) But if I'm not mistaken, I think the fracture was actually caused by a 3-toe jump. If it was, I could see why she would be wary of doing 3-toes that season, particularly a 3t-3t combo. Which isn't to say she couldn't have tried a 3s-3l or something else. I'm just saying the 3t-3t might have been a little too 'iffy' at that time.
 
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engrsktr

Guest
Re: objectively speaking

I'm sure michelle could have pulled off a triple salchow/triple loop combo or something of the sort.... it's just a matter of pushing oneself.... all these skaters say they want to do the best they can do, that it's not about the medal or winning... if that's the case, then why do we not see Michelle push herself to get that triple/triple consistently ready for competition.....??? I just don't understand....
 
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realistic51

Guest
ugh-jumps

Yes if you take out the jumps it's ice dancing. Well, let's see...some of these skaters who are doing 3/3s and 3axels ought to learn basic skating skills. Then when you have that down, start learning to skate WITH your music instead of AT your music. Then, after that, put your jumps in...but don't frontload your program. Let me see how well you last with your jumps spread through the program. Oh, and practice your edging and spins while you're at it.

Look, jumps are important. "Tricks" are NOT figure skating. Sure, I believe Michelle will need a 3/3 next year. Guess what? She was practicing 3/3s up until Nationals when she suffered a minor hip injury for doing so. Guess what? She decided not to risk her health. Guess what? She won Nationals and Worlds.

So over the summer after the COI tour, she'll probably start working them again. Since she has stated she believes 3/3s will be necessary in competition I think she will do what she needs to do.

Other skaters will need to become consistent with their programs, or have more than just jumping skills in their LP next year because they may get higher technical scores, but they are neglecting their spins, edging, spirals, etc. There's more to this SPORT than just JUMPING. Jumping did NOT make this a SPORT in the beginning and it shouldn't now.:mad:
 
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engrsktr

Guest
Re: ugh-jumps

wow... I guess I pushed some buttons there.... a lot of pent up aggression I guess....
In using the term "tricks" I meant spins and jumps in general.... I think I can take that latitude..

by the way, jumping was VERY important in the beginning... Sonja Henie wasn't the 10 time world champion for skating in circles.... in fact, her edework wasn't THAT stellar.... but she did try the big "tricks" (if I may?).... fast spins... and an axel for a lady???? Someone shoot me! The end of skating has come!

I'm sorry but when they abolished school figures, skating became all about jumps and spins.... if you want skaters to be able to skate then start at the beginning.... basic skating skills are figures.... and Michelle wouldn't be where she is right now if she had had to do them like those before her....

Jumps were a HUGE part of the sport in the beginning and continue to be this day..........
 
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Verbalgirl77

Guest
Re: ugh-jumps

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm sorry but when they abolished school figures, skating became all about jumps and spins.... if you want skaters to be able to skate then start at the beginning.... basic skating skills are figures.... and Michelle wouldn't be where she is right now if she had had to do them like those before her....[/quote]

I guess it would depend on how you compare those skills to all of the current ladies. Michelle may not be Trixie Schuba, but I think her basics in that sense are quite good, and I'm not sure there's a skater out there who would be better than Michelle in that area to prevent her from being where she is right now. There isn't a way to measure that nowadays, I suppose.

It would be fun if there was though, just to see how things in the last 4 Olympics would have ended up if figures were still a factor.
 
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engrsktr

Guest
Re: ugh-jumps

I am not saying that figures always make a superb freeskater... however, they do add a LOT to the skater as a whole.... there is a big difference to me between the skaters of today and those even at the end of the figures legacy....
figures promote control, precision, and bodily awareness.... I used to hate them when I had to do them... but now that i look back on it there is an inherent fundamentalism that goes along with them..... I think they are missed today.... greatly...
 
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realistic51

Guest
jumps/figures

Well, Sonja Henie did have her "tricks" (I despise that word because that's not accurate). And that's fine. But the fact remains, jumping was not "all that" when figure skating was accepted as an Olympic sport. What I meant was that JUMPING didn't MAKE figure skating a sport but it is an integral part naturally. However I would like to see jumps limited in a free skate.

I will just agree to disagree with you because you're right, I am basically against a program frontloaded or loaded even with jumps and absolutely nothing else.
 
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Joesitz

Guest
Re: jumps/figures

It's not just the lst place for Michelle, it's her presence as well as her consistency in the tricks that she does.

Tara knew how to beat her with the 3/3 loop. I'm not so sure that will do it again. Her competitors need something. 3/3s are fine but they are not enough (Tara had moxy). A Michelle competitor needs presence. One who takes to the ice and says 'I can win this'. At the moment, there isn't anyone, but there could be.

Michelle has it. For heavens sake, some other lady should easily get the idea of beautiful skating and not just tricks!

Beautiful skating does matter.

Joe
 
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kwansong999

Guest
Re: jumps/figures

Joe, wonderfully said. Couldnt agree any more.

My 0.02......
Michelle is a smart competitor. She wasnt going to pull out all the stops for a 3/3 this season and risk njury by rushing herself. She wasnt even sure she was going to compete this season until november! She is taking another route. She will slowly train into a 3/3 if she remains eligible. She said it herself.

She saw what happened with her 3sal/3loop (2001 worlds)... it gave her hip problems... same as the 3lutz/3loop last season (2002 season up to Nat)... She is taking it one step at a time. She obviously knows what she is doing because she is still here and not sitting in a doctor's office getting a new hip.

I dont care if the other skaters do quints. The rest of their skating SUFFERS badly. These girls are human. They will all have weaknesses and strenghs in their skating. Everyone has a long way to go before they can match or surpass MK.
 
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shawnie21

Guest
Re: jumps/figures

I didn't really see Michelle doing anything wrong. I agree that she's going to work on getting them down, but maybe she's trying to build up to something. If I were in this position (mind you, this is ME and I have no clue what Michelle's thinking), and I did it this way, I'd be working up to something. Seriously, she did take a big risk coming to world's with no 3/3, when it seems like everybody else is gonna try. Sure most of these girls aren't very consistent, but you never know when fate might be shining on you. So say this year she was starting from the ground up. Working on speed, working on edging, working on really loving the moment. Then she slowly starts working in tricks, and harder jumps and whatever. Maybe she is gonna stick around till 2006, and maybe she has a plan for doing it. Honestly, Michelle can't do things like she used to. She's not old, but she's a woman now, not a kid. She knows what she needs and she has to get it when it's gonna turn out best for her, not when everyone else wants her to have it. I just think there is more method than madness here.
 
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engrsktr

Guest
Re: jumps/figures

why does everyone act like michelle JUST learned how to do all these difficult maneuvers??? She came onto the scene with them TEN years ago for goodness sake.... she could have been "building up to (the triple combos)" for YEARS at this point.....

And no figure skating isn't all about jumps - NO ONE IS SAYING IT'S ALL ABOUT JUMPS... I am being objective and wondering why if she has such great artistry and technique why she hasn't placed the triple/triple into her game plan YEARS ago when she really needed it... if she had she would have one by now completely consistently! And more power to her..... then she would be TRULY unstoppable...
There may not be anyone to challenge her now, but just like with Tara and Irina and Sarah, once the combinations come out and a skater has comparable artistry and/or "moxy" (a presence) then michelle is in trouble and I just question why she or her one time coach wouldn't have planned for this thing... everything else in her career seemed so well planned as far as future considerations were concerned....
I personally think there is a slump going on right now with skaters.... very very few who are the uppermost elite quality... and most of them are either not consistent or "lack artistry" .... so of course michelle doesn't need a triple/triple to win right now.. but she HAS needed it and she WILL need it....

And as far as injuries go - that's part of the sport... I don't think a triple/triple is so far out of her range that she would really put it on hold because she is afraid of injury.... you can hurt yourself in a VARIETY of ways just by stepping out onto the ice everyday.... the risk is inherent and anyone who says otherwise is just being silly.... and to say that there is MORE risk with something like the triple/triple is absurd - if one has been doing a certain triple for YEARS, adding one onto the end of that one (especially one landed with such great speed and flow as you all say she does and it may be true) isn't such a drastic step up in the risk category....
 
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BronzeisGolden02

Guest
Silly

Althought there have been several legitimate thoughts on this, I think it's going in circles and becoming silly. It appears that it comes down to what you feel personally and that will always make for difference of opinion. Personally, 3/3s aren't that important to me. Are they important in skating? Sure, but they aren't a must-have for gold in every competition. And, what if a skater isn't interested in or intensely focused on doing a 3/3? Fine with me. I want to see quality skating in all aspects and Michelle does that for me. If she doesn't want to try a 3/3, I'm not going to try to assess the level of her competitive drive, I'll just assume she doesn't want to do one for what would have to be a valid reason. And, it's not like Michelle has never landed them. She landed the 3t/3t (yes the easiest, but if they are so important why don't you see more, especially this combination?) countless times, some of those times she was the only competitor in the event with a 3/3 (2000 Worlds for one). So, it's Michelle's call, its been a wonderful ride so far and I might just trust her with her own career choices.
 
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Aria

Guest
Re: Silly

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><strong>Originally posted by engrsktr</strong>
If Debi, Kristi and Midori and Nancy were completing them in the late eighties/early to mid 90's, why are they not in evidence more so today from the one major player that could truly use them to show her true technical prowess - aka Michelle?[/quote]In competitions at least, Debi and Nancy never landed any 3-3 combo more difficult than Michelle's 3T-3T, and they landed their 3T-3Ts far fewer times than Michelle has. Kristi did do the more difficult 3L-3T, but, IIRC, she only did it consistently over two seasons. Midori was the jumpers' jumper, and landed many difficult jumps and jump combos from the late '80s through '92. But, I personally found her lacking in grace, line and form, especially the ugly leg wrap on some of her jumps.<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><strong>Originally posted by Verbalgirl77</strong>
As far as the 'decline' of 3-3's, I prefer 100% to see consistent skating minus the falls than to watch the splatfests of a decade ago when everyone was falling all over the place trying to do 6-7 triples. Give me consistency any day.[/quote]ITA. When the ladies were trying more difficult jumps in the early '90s, we saw a lot more falls. I prefer cleaner, well presented skating with slightly less technical difficulty to error ridden, disruptive, poorly presented splatfests due to skaters trying to push the tech envelope.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><strong>Originally posted by engrsktr</strong>
To be honest I hope we do see a spurt.... yes skating isn't all about the jumps... but I take exception to the fact that most would like to really downplay them... I disagree.. I think the tricks are very important.... without them, it would be ice dancing....... [/quote]I think it will be interesting to see if those who have been clamoring for a jump spurt will actually enjoy it as much as they think they are going to enjoy it, especially if it leads to splatfests and/ or less artistic programs. I and, I think, quite a few other fans have found the Kwan era much more exciting than the late '80s-early '90s ladies jump era.<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><strong>Originally posted by engrsktr</strong>
As far as Michelle having been in a WALKING cast, it wasn't that drastic as far as her conditioning and technique... you don't lose that kind of skill in a few weeks of part time off....[/quote]FWIU, Michelle got a stress fracture in her toe due to boot problems and practicing toe jumps. She had been having boot problems since Fall '96, and started having problems with her toe way before she was put in a walking cast in Fall '97. I don't think she was able to practice the 3-3 during the Summer and Fall of '97. And, she was still recovering from her toe when she skated in Nagano. That's why she didn't march in the Opening Ceremonies and couldn't do the 3T-3T.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><strong>Originally posted by engrsktr</strong>
I'm sorry but when they abolished school figures, skating became all about jumps and spins.... if you want skaters to be able to skate then start at the beginning.... basic skating skills are figures.... and Michelle wouldn't be where she is right now if she had had to do them like those before her....[/quote]In the figures era, she wouldn't have become World Champion by age 15, but I think she would have won many events by her current age 22. In the figures era, ladies usually peaked from age 18-22.

Since Michelle has secure edging, flow, and other excellent basic skills, I think Michelle would probably have been good at figures. I think she might have won gold at '97 Worlds and '98 Olympics if figures had still been around. Her basic skating is remincient of Peggy, Janet, and Dorothy, so I think Michelle would have been a top skater in any skating era. OTOH, skaters with poorer basics like Surya Bonaly and Candelero would have been lucky just to make it to Worlds during the figures era.<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><strong>Originally posted by engrsktr</strong>
And as far as injuries go - that's part of the sport... I don't think a triple/triple is so far out of her range that she would really put it on hold because she is afraid of injury.... you can hurt yourself in a VARIETY of ways just by stepping out onto the ice everyday.... the risk is inherent and anyone who says otherwise is just being silly.... and to say that there is MORE risk with something like the triple/triple is absurd.[/quote]
Absurd? Not at all! There were far fewer injuries, in particular far fewer severe injuries, before 3-3s and quads. In the '70s and much of the '80s, withdrawals for injuries were rare--now they are commonplace.

Several ladies have had to quit or limit their skating due to severe injuries from trying 3-3s, in particular 3-3s with a loop on the end. Tara, Elizabeth Kwon, Deanna Stellato, Naomi Nari Nam are some of the examples. Didn't Hungarian 3-3 phenom Kristina Czanko (sp?) also have to leave skating? Quads have injured Elvis, Yagudin, Plushy, Tim, etc.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><strong>Originally posted by BronzeisGolden02</strong>
And, it's not like Michelle has never landed them. She landed the 3t/3t (yes the easiest, but if they are so important why don't you see more, especially this combination?) countless times, some of those times she was the only competitor in the event with a 3/3 (2000 Worlds for one).[/quote]I think Michelle may have landed more 3-3s in competition than any other currently eligible lady. She's landed eleven in competition. Since '95, she's been landing at least one 3T-3T every year, except this year ('03) and '98, when she was still getting over her toe injury and was unable to. That's seven out of nine years-- pretty consistent, IMO. Source for information: heatherw.com/mk/jumps.htm

I agree with Bronze that more difficult jumps just aren't as important to me. I became a fan when the double axel was the most difficult jump the ladies were doing, and when jumps were treated equal to and like just any other element. But, I hope Michelle can add a more difficult 3-3 or two, so she remains competitive and satisfies those who do care about more difficult jumps.
 
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