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Thread: Deductions under COP scoring

  1. #1
    Keeper of La Khok's Tutus Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Deductions under COP scoring

    I'm wondering if we will be able to find out what all the deductions are for. The majority of the men had 1 or 2 point deductions. As the competition was going on, the speculation on FS Universe was that many of these were for falls on jumps. However Joubert showed no deductions, but it was reported that he fell on his 4T. So I'm not so sure.

    Anyone know if more details about the scoring and deductions will be available anywhere on the net?

    DG

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    Keeper of La Khok's Tutus Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Other COP Observations...

    I really have decided overall I like this system. Here are some placement movements from the Men's competition that I think would be unlikely to see under the 6.0 system:

    Lindemann - placed dead last in the SP, but placed 5th in the LP. From my recollection, it was very rare to see a skater not in the final group of 6 be moved like that.

    Song - placed 9th in the SP but finished in 6th. Same observation as for Lindemann.

    Young - placed 6th in the SP (so in final group) but placed 7th in the LP and overall.

    I also like the fact that scores matter, not just ordinals. For the men, Joubert had a 7 point lead over Weiss (and 11 points over Jahnke) after the short. And the results were excited to "watch" (in numbers only LOL). But for the ladies, only .02 separates 1st and 2nd, the there is a tie for third only about 3.5 points behind. That will create a different type of competition me thinks.

    I'm interested in the thoughts of the more knowledgeable!!

    DG

  3. #3
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Doddygirl, I'd sau also that under 6.0 it would be rare to have a reighning World bronze medalist finish dead last in SP.

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    Skating Freak Barbie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptichka
    Doddygirl, I'd sau also that under 6.0 it would be rare to have a reighning World bronze medalist finish dead last in SP.
    even if he fell on all his jumps, like lindemann did??

    kasey

  5. #5
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Well, in the past judges seemed to have unduly rewarded an attempted difficult jump. As I understand it, Stephan fell on on a quad and a triple axel, so yes, I think judges would have been more forgiving under 6.0. Remember SLC -- when Evgeny fell in SP, he was still placed high enough to put various medals within his reach.

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    Good point Ptichka......

    ....on the World Bronze medalist finishing dead last in the SP. Even though I haven't seen any of the programs, I really do doubt that dead last would have been the placement under 6.0 regardless of the performance.

    Will we ever have access after these events to more details about the scoring of the elements?

    While I have a hard time imagining men ending up on the world podium without any quads, the signs look positive based on Jahnke's score that appropriate credit is starting to be given for unique and difficult jump entrances and the other non-jumping program elements. I hope that is *real* and not just wishful thinking on my part!! If so, we should see some really exciting programs develop on the road to Turin.

    DG

  7. #7
    I belive the deductions are for things like going over your time, costume deductions, things like that. I'm not 100% sure though.

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    Go NJ Devils
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    Quote Originally Posted by BravesSkateFan
    I belive the deductions are for things like going over your time, costume deductions, things like that. I'm not 100% sure though.
    Those and the mandatory 1.0 for falls are the deductions. Time deductions are based on the length of time the program exceeds the limit, but I think it would be rare to see more than 1.0 for time deductions, as a skater would be way off the music in that situation.

    There are also rules about what constitutes a fall. I've been plowing through the ISU documentation, but haven't been able to find them yet. However, during a "mock" GoP analysis of Campbell's on FSU, there was considerable debate on whether Kwan's "fall" at the end of her footwork series was a fall by CoP definition, and the discussion was around whether both feet left the ice at the same time. It may be that a skater can fall on his/her rump, but by keeping both blades on the ice, avoid the -1.0 fall deduction.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    If a lady plans a 7 triple program and a double Axel, and then at the last minute she is overwhelmed with an adrenaline rush and turns her double Axel into a triple, is that a deduction?

    Similarly, what if she plans a triple-double but turns it into a triple-triple on the spur of the moment?

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    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Mathman, as I understand CoP, the whole idea is that it is totally irrelevant what you've planned ahead of time. Judges should only look at what's in front of them. Of course, they now have to be extra careful to avoid violating Zayak. If in your example the new triple will be the third jump of its kind -- forget it. You'll repeat Plushy's mistake atg GPF.

  11. #11
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    Why a "Start Value" would have meaning..

    And I suspect those on the forefront of COP planning already know these numbers.

    Ptichka - my understanding too is that a "start value" doesn't mean a thing in terms of the actual performance (at least it shouldn't if I understand things correctly). I think there would be two main benefits to having a "start value" established for a routine ahead of time, similar to gymnastics.

    1) For the athlete (most important) they would have an idea how their planned program stacks up against other competitors planned programs. If an athlete realized their "start value" was lower than a close competitor, then to win, said athlete would need to a) add more difficulty b) count on "+" points for extremely well performed moves relative to competitor or c) count on competitor's flaws.

    2) For the viewer, it would provide a baseline to know how programs stack up against each other, assuming "meets standard" type performance.

    I would be all in favor of knowing this up front.

    DG

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    If a lady plans a 7 triple program and a double Axel, and then at the last minute she is overwhelmed with an adrenaline rush and turns her double Axel into a triple, is that a deduction?

    Similarly, what if she plans a triple-double but turns it into a triple-triple on the spur of the moment?

    As I understand it, turning a double axel into a triple would be fine, as would turning a triple-double into a triple-triple.

    The skater has not violated Zyak by doing this. Zayak simply states that a jump may only be performed twice in a program, and one of those must be in combination.

    Now, on the other hand, if she had a triple- double planned and tapped another double on the end - THAT would be a violation IF the skater had already performed 2 jump combinations/series in the program. That is where Plushy ran into problems last year. Had he not added the additional jump, he most likely would have won the GPF. By doing so, he violated the rules by having too many series'/combinations, and it nullified the points he would have received from the jump/s already completed just prior to the additional jump.

    Technically, a skater could perform as many as 9 triples in a program without violating Zyak OR the Series/Combinations rule. Now of course the likelihood of 3 triples in a row is extremely unlikely, nonetheless, it can be done according to the rules.

    IE:

    Triple Axel, Triple Loop, Triple Toe
    Triple Flip, Triple Loop, Triple Toe
    Triple Flip
    Triple Axel
    Triple Lutz

  13. #13
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    The planned program is important, because the instruction to the "Technical People" to "Call the intended x" depends upon the written plan in the following circumstances:

    1. Fall on take off
    2. Rotation not complete up to 1/4 turn (on any or all jumps of combo/seq and twist lift)
    3. Starting from the wrong edge (on any or all jumps of combo/seq
    4. Fall on landing of spin

    There is a warning in the "Judges" column of the ISU documentation: "Attention!! Refer to jump called by the Technical People"

    Also, the "Instructions for Technical Specialists - Singles" state,
    4. Short Program: If there is no second jump in a jump combination, the Technical Specialist identifies the intended combination during or after the program.

    7. In Free Skating, in the case of an intended jump combination where the skater turns on o ne foot between the jumps without the free foot touching the ice, the Technical Specialist will identify the element as a jump combination.

    8. In Free skating if the skater turns between the jumps with the free foot touching the ice, the Technical Specialist will identify the element as a jump sequence...However, in the Short Program such a turn between the intended jumps will always be considered as a jump combination
    This means that botched combinations will not be counted against the Zayak rule for repeated jumps, but if the skater falls on the first jump,
    11. The possible second jump of a jump combination will be ignored and therefore not counted [if] a skater falls after the first jump.
    Similar rules apply for Pairs jumps, where if one skater falls on the first jump, the attempt counts as a the planned combo or sequence.

    Off-topic, but interesting, is
    18. An Axel jump taking off from the forward inside edge is a non listed element and therefore doesn't count.
    From the "Well Balanced Free Program - Singles" communication:
    *There may be up to three jump combincations or jump sequences in the Free Program. One jump combination could consiste of up to three (3) jumps, the other two up to two (2) jumps. [The Plushenko Rule?]

    *Of all the triple and quadruple jumps only two (2) can be repeated and these repetitions must be in either a jump cimbination or in a jump squence. A repeated triple or quadruple solo jump, not included into a jump combination or jump sequence, will be considered as part of a not successfully executed jump cimbination and counted as a jump combination with only one jump executed. If three (3) jump combinations or jump sequences (in total) have already been executed, the repeated solo jump will be treated as an additional element and therefore not considered. No triple or quadruple jump can be attempted more than twice.
    Ladies have a maximum of 7 jump elements (with one Axel) and Men a maximum of 8 jump elements (with one Axel).

    To answer Mathman's question, it depends on how many triples were in combination or sequence. Assuming this is Ladies, if there were 7 triples, one of each in 7 jump elements, the 3A would not count; it would be considered an 8th or extra jump element. If there were 7 triples, and one of them was repeated three times, the third repeat would not count, but the rules aren't clear whether the 3A would be treated as an additional element and not count either. (Luckily for the skaters, flutzes and lips don't count as flips and lutzes, otherwise this would not be such a marginal situation.) If there were 7 triples in six jump elements, then the 3A would count.

    The total number of triples and quads in a program is restricted by the Zayak rule, the number of jump elements allowed, and the take-off and landing edges for each jump (for combos).
    Last edited by hockeyfan228; 10-24-2004 at 01:39 PM.

  14. #14
    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    From the "Well Balanced Free Program - Singles" communication:

    *There may be up to three jump combincations or jump sequences in the Free Program. One jump combination could consiste of up to three (3) jumps, the other two up to two (2) jumps. [The Plushenko Rule?]

    *Of all the triple and quadruple jumps only two (2) can be repeated and these repetitions must be in either a jump cimbination or in a jump squence. A repeated triple or quadruple solo jump, not included into a jump combination or jump sequence, will be considered as part of a not successfully executed jump cimbination and counted as a jump combination with only one jump executed. If three (3) jump combinations or jump sequences (in total) have already been executed, the repeated solo jump will be treated as an additional element and therefore not considered. No triple or quadruple jump can be attempted more than twice.
    Ladies have a maximum of 7 jump elements (with one Axel) and Men a maximum of 8 jump elements (with one Axel).
    So let me see if I got it right. A skater can have a max of 3 jump combo or jomp sequence, in total. Could it be:
    • 3 jump combo
    • 3 jump sequence
    • 2 jump combo and 1 jump sequence
    • 2 jump sequence and 1 jump combo


    Now, in order to not violate Zayak, if for example a skater makes a 4toe, he could do it solo, and then in either 1 jump combo or 1 jump sequence, leaving him with 2 other jump combos or jump sequences to do, but in which he cannot do the 4toe again. Is that right? I hope I explained myself .

    Now that we are talking about well balance free program, I was reading in the thread of the ladies free skate that Angela did quite a lot of 2axels and 2toes. I think Zayak applies only for triples and quads, but doing the same double jumps that many times, doesn't that goes against a well balance program? would a skater get deductions for that?

  15. #15
    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
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    Judges scoring

    for all of us who wanted to see the detailed deduction from the judges, they are up!

    http://www.isufs.org/results/gpusa04/index.htm

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