Ladies Free Program

Mathman said:

Still, different cultures have different ways of expressing emotion. To Irina Slutskaya, feeling the anguish of Tosca meant flopping around grabbing her head. This was made fun of here in prim and proper America.

Similarly, cheesing and grinning in response to beautiful music may not be the Asian cup of tea. As the Chinese say about Americans -- "They're inscrutable! Americans smile all the time, so you never know what they are thinking!"

MM

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That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm no expert, and this is just MHO, but I think the japanese skaters usually do not express much in the music because they come from a more reserved culture. I think that's why they are not so opened. Like someone said, is not just to make face expressions just because. The skater needs to find a connection with the music and let it flow. I read some interview of Fumie Suguri in which she talks about this, and that she is working on expressing more of herself in her programs. I think this is something Miki definitely needs to work on as well. She has good technical skills. All she needs is more emotion to her skating :agree: . those are my two cents

Mathman said:

Similarly, cheesing and grinning in response to beautiful music may not be the Asian cup of tea. As the Chinese say about Americans -- "They're inscrutable! Americans smile all the time, so you never know what they are thinking!"

MM

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Culture and expression

Now Tatiana Totmianna (the pairs skater who fell - wish her all the best in her recovery) is from a distinctly different culture than Miki Ando, yet they both seem to skate with stone faces.

Chengjaing Li is Chinese and is quite expressive. Yoshie Onda also wears her heart on her sleeve and positively radiates the mood of her music.

To attribute expression or lack thereof to a cultural connection is, IMO, a bit of an over simplification.

Miki just leaves me cold. It's not a jumping contest. Yet she pretty much mails in everything but the jumps. Perhaps Skate America will be her wake up call.

Linny

JonnyCoop said:

The reason that the long program was given such a definitive percentage value of the overall score, starting in 1973, was due to the fact that Beatrix Schuba won the '72 Olympics by having a figures lead that was so large that not even "substandard" free skating (the part which was shown on TV) could keep her from winning. Now, I don't know for sure where Ms. Schuba finished in the free skate (I've heard anything from 9th to 15th), but it was certainly low enough to make TV viewers wonder WHAT on earth was going on when she was clearly outskated by Janet Lynn, Karen Magnussen, and several others. So isn't the case of Susanna Poykio rather a variation of that?

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Beatrix Schuba may have been outskated in the freeskate by a number of skaters, but that is not the only reason that the percentage allotted to the long program -- and the creation of the short program -- happened: Schuba won a phase that was purely technical and not telegenic, one that related to free skating only in the way that a ballet barre relates to Swan Lake, i.e., as a technical foundation.

Poykio outskated everyone else in the LP in the same type of skating in which she botched the preliminary rounds -- the elements in the LP are recognizable in the SP to the average viewer. This is analogous to a diving competition where a diver who scores 10's on the final dive cannot win the competition, because of a series of errors in the preliminary round -- not televised -- that carried over. If ABC, knowing the outcome, wasn't willing to spend 60 seconds to give a wrap-up of the SP, with clips of Ando's 3Z/3R and Nikodinov's 3Z/2T to show how they were in the lead, and Poykio falling on something to explain her 8th place going into the "finals", they could have shown Poykio's program and given an explanation in Kiss 'N Cry. To put this in commentators' terms, "That was a brilliant freeskate -- let's see if she did well enough to bridge the x-point deficit she had from the short program. No, it's not enough. Poykio can only move from 8th position to 5th. What a disappointment for her... Ando's and Czisny's lead after the SP held up for 3rd and 4th place."

Given how awful Ota's performance was, with no impact on the standings -- she dropped two places in the LP and finished in 7th place -- I wonder if they didn't even bother to tape the first flight of Ladies' skates.

hockeyfan228 said:

Poykio outskated everyone else in the LP in the same type of skating in which she botched the preliminary rounds -- the elements in the LP are recognizable in the SP to the average viewer. This is analogous to a diving competition where a diver who scores 10's on the final dive cannot win the competition, because of a series of errors in the preliminary round -- not televised -- that carried over. If ABC, knowing the outcome, wasn't willing to spend 60 seconds to give a wrap-up of the SP, with clips of Ando's 3Z/3R and Nikodinov's 3Z/2T to show how they were in the lead, and Poykio falling on something to explain her 8th place going into the "finals", they could have shown Poykio's program and given an explanation in Kiss 'N Cry. To put this in commentators' terms, "That was a brilliant freeskate -- let's see if she did well enough to bridge the x-point deficit she had from the short program. No, it's not enough. Poykio can only move from 8th position to 5th. What a disappointment for her... Ando's and Czisny's lead after the SP held up for 3rd and 4th place."
.

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That's a good idear and very helpful to an average viewer who dose not visit skating board. I hope they will do this when worlds come around.

Suguri's presentation is uniqley asian I think (especially 2000- her rite of spring SP that year shows that) and thats one of the reasons I like it. It's different. It is more so with Yukina Ota. Except she is softer than Suguri. I think there is a difference between expressing something differently and not expressing. I don't know if anyone here ever watches rythmic gymnastics. But if you ever do check it out. Check out the chinese rythmic group gymnasts. They are brilliant at this. The malaysian singles do a great job of infusing something more subtle and asian with the bolder style of the russian trainers. (the chinese are coached and developed entirely by themselves.) As a side bar- I freaking love Ota. She brilliantly understated, gentle, calm and elegant with deep knees. I think I am going to start a fan thread... I rewatched her program, and I still liked it even with the falls. I appreciated it more the second time around. I hope she keeps bringing the style along further and further. I think she needs to develop the one she has. Obviously she doesn't need a new style. And she just needs to keep maturing and getting experiance and maybe more power. (if you compare her to say Ando) JHMO
I think Ando's missing alot there, and maybe Realtorgirl has what it is. I'm not a expert in music and phrases or advanced enough of a skater to have any personal experiance in that so I don't really know. But that sounds very likely to me as a layperson. I still think facial expressions are important. So I disagree about that. Maybe not the most important thing. But sorry they are important. Even with a more subtle form of presentation. I think she seems like a great skater though, she will get it.
It is interesting to see what others think differently coming from a different places though. I always find the different cultural angles and points of view of all cultures and their view on art expression interesting (and manners) fun to know and to try to understand anyway. This seems a good debate.
Thank you for the welcome Mathman. I can't beleive it either...yikes I think I need to cut down. To anyone who cares, I have been totally bored this whole weekend and I have been on a skating obession overload. I haven't really watched it very carefully since 2002. (just a little bit here and there) I missed it alot , follwing the drama and waitng for competitions to play out. But I forget about skating mostly with life (college) and all for ahwile. The real deal though is I am trying to avoid doing an huge essay that is due...tomorrow morning. I shut myself in all weekend for that, stayed up nights, and I just mainly watched and talked skating (and tv) instead. I am so so screwed... Glad I found the site though.
Oh I like the joke about Americans being inscrutable to asians! LMAO
And I would be inclined to agree about what some of you are saying about abc. But I think that is much more of NBC's thing. Anyone who watches gymnastics, know they are so nefarious like that!

Hockeyfan228. Great way to put it. You should commentate. :agree: I think that maybe the networks don't like something complicated for skating though. Just a feeling I get. They want a little of it, to hold up the sport side. But not too much. I think they really like to ride the emotion wave and just make the facts bend to it a little bit (not a lot but a little) sometimes. I think they thought explaining it all that would turn people off. Probally why Poykio was skipped. I would like that so much more though, as probally everyone here would. It's obviously more in keeping with sport. I wonder how the average fan feels. I bet they prefer an better explanation too.
As for the COP I am sad to say I am still a dunce on the finer points of it. But I've only looked at it Skate America. Who knows maybe worlds will connect the dots for me. as far as the LP/SP thing. Was this system used on the GP last year?

I could be wrong but from where I was sitting (the other side of the rink from Peggy & Dick), it did not appear they were paying much attention to the first team of skaters. I doubt they even did any commentating while they were skating. Ota was in team 2.

I am not a big Miki fan but her program on Sunday was to the song Micky. It was very upbeat and she was very effective in showing her emotion. She took on the character of a cheerleader and was very bubbly. Maybe she need to skate to something lighter. IMO she doesn't connect with the heavier classical music.

Ladybug

ladybug said:

I could be wrong but from where I was sitting (the other side of the rink from Peggy & Dick), it did not appear they were paying much attention to the first team of skaters. I doubt they even did any commentating while they were skating. Ota was in team 2.

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That was really dumb of them. What if Liashenko, skating in the first group, had pulled...a Liashenko and podiumed?

herios said:

OK,

I will try to make a few observations. For those who get all excited, about Angela's win....DON'T! I may sound too harsh, but this was not a winning performance IMO, mainly she had a good strategy, that is all. To win without even trying a salchow and a loop it's unheard of at this level!!!!!
Here are all her jumps: 2a, 3toe, 3lutz/2toe, 3 flip, 3 flip/2 toe, 2 axel, 2 toe, 1 axel.
Basically she pulled a Kevin van den Perren, who used to try 2 or 3 double axels last year, when he didn't have a 3 axel and get credit for them.
So, I think she has still a problem with her edge jumps (salchow and loop) like she always had, because that is when she starts doubling in the middle of the LP. Cop helped her put out enough content, skating last, to win the competition.
Cynthia Phaneuf had also 4 triples. She popped the first 2 triples, then she regained composure and landed everything else. Her presentation is well beyond her age and looks to me the judges just "adore her". If this continues, she will be a favourite in years to come.
Miki Ando....well, I can't figure out her second set of marks.....While this was not her best technically, my feeling is she doesn't get enough credit on her technical content (she fell on her 4 salchow for heaven's sake...then she gets marked for a 3 salchow fall -3), but that is the rule...On the second mark though, she gets hammered. She got 48.40 presentation while Alisa Czisny had 50.40 !!!!! Alisa is another one, who got a gift beside Cynthia Phaneuff, her presentation is very much junior like, and to have higher marks than Ando who is not bad at all, it is unfair.
Czisny was not as good as in the SP, but she showed a lot of promise, beside the fact that she got more credit to her presentation than she should've...
Poykio, what a pitty, she had the skate of the night, with 5 clean triples, she only popped the loop, with very fluid skating and she deserved much more than 5th. She skated beautifully.
I think under factored placements, she would've finished higher, despite being 8th after LP.
Liashenko underrotated 2 triples, and of course she didn't try the loop.
Ota was far from her best.

Herios - Joseph

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Ok, true, Nikodinov's programme was far from her best or anyone's best for that matter (Angela even acknowledged it wasn't her best effort in the ABC interview w/ Peter Carruthers), but that still doesn't take away from the fact that she was the only one of the top ladies who skated a clean performance.

As far as not having the salchow or loop, it said in the blog right before she skated that Angela is recovering from shoulder surgery that was more serious than was expected (this is why she didn't perform the salchow last year at Nats, and as the loop requires throwing the shoulder back to get the rotation, this is probably why she's not doing the loop either)

As for Ando: yes, she has wonderful technical merit, 3x3s all over the place, but there are two component scores: technical and artistic/presentation. I caught the last half of Ando's programme on TV, and the commentators were saying that many of her spins and other elements were level 1s; she can't have that if she wants to be a factor on the GP under CoP, whether CoP is liked or not. IMO, its the same thing you had with Tara Lipinski: they're not going to give you a gold medal just b/c you can jump, you have to skate an entire programme.

And finally, as for the VDP 2axel thing....why will this not die! Granted, Kevin VDP is one of my favourite skaters, so I'm a little biased, but the whole issue last year with why he didn't have a 3axel or a quad was b/c he was coming off of knee surgery and couldn't do them. The 3 2axels were to prove to the judges that he could do the axel jump (which is perfectly allowed under CoP and ordinal judging; the Zayak rule doesn't apply to double jumps). It's the same thing with Angela and her shoulder: she can't do the salchow or loop b/c of her shoulder, so she's operating within the boundaries of what she can do. I hardly think it's fair to harp on a skater for not doing a jump if they can't do it b/c of injury

Sorry if I came off overly negative in that; just putting in my two cents

A point I wondered about....

ladybug said:

I could be wrong but from where I was sitting (the other side of the rink from Peggy & Dick), it did not appear they were paying much attention to the first team of skaters. I doubt they even did any commentating while they were skating. Ota was in team 2.

Under the old 6.0 system, I wonder if there EVER was an international competition where someone in group 2 won 1st in the free skate. In my recollection, it was rare for anyone's LP placements to move between groups with the possible exception of exchanging maybe 6th or 7th place. Since it's a bit of a new world under the new scoring system, I was actually wondering if they even had the cameras on during Poykio's skate. Especially since she's not considered a "top contender" ala MK, Sasha, Irina, Shiz, etc.

At any rate, I'm disappointed we didn't get to see Poykio's program.

DG

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ladybug said:

...her program on Sunday was to the song Micky. It was very upbeat and she was very effective in showing her emotion. She took on the character of a cheerleader and was very bubbly.

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That news made my day! I hope we get to see it on TV some time.

Miki, Miki, you're so fine! You're so fine you blow my mind! Hey, Miki!!

It is NOT true that Asian skaters are generically unexpressive. You had only to watch Yukina Ota skate to see just how much emotion she was able to express in every moment of her performance (even if her jumps weren't there). I enjoyed her program a hundred times more than Miki Ando's. The same is true of Shen/Zhao, Pang/Tong and even Fumie Suguri. All of these skaters are able to express the character of the music quite effectively and are never blank-faced.

Shizuka Arakawa is not the most expressive of skaters, but she does relate to her music, and brings out the character in her movements, if not in her face. But Miki might just as well be skating to traffic sounds because she simply doesn't relate to her music at all. The feeling I get from Miki is that she is counting off each jump in her head and that is what motivates her entire program---getting through the program, jump by jump. That contributes to the careless and rather slapdash quality of her other elements, her final spin excepted.

But it is true that most Asia skaters need more time to develop their expressions and 'performance'. May be some of them had it originally, but the grownup enviroment supressed that natural. I lived under that enviroment more than half of my life, I knew what it dose to you.

Just wanted to say that I enjoyed watching the ladies yesterday, despite the absence of Sasha and Michelle. It was interesting to see some of the newer skaters. Thought I'd write down some of my impressions here.

Miki Ando: Miki's jumps are amazing--the rest of her skating is not. The COP scoring clearly reflected that (which I think is a good thing).

Angela Nikodinov: It was great to see Angela back on the ice, and I think she definitely deserved to win. But it was still only a mediocre performance. She needs to do better to compete at the highest level. I think she knows it, too, from her post-event comments. I wish Angela the absolute best--she is a terrific talent.

Cynthia Phaneuf: This was the first time I've seen her skate. I was immediately struck by her charisma and presence on the ice. She has a bit of that star quality to her. And I agreed with Dick that she seems very musical and aware of how each movement fits into the program, which is comparatively rare for a skater her age. I also liked the fact that she fought back with her jumps and finished the program stronger than she began. That, in my mind, is always a sign of a good competitor.

Alissa Czisny: This was the first time I'd seen Alissa. She is a lovely skater, with nice expression and beautiful spins. A lot of struggles with the jumps though, so I think we'll have to wait and see what happens with her. Hopefully she'll become much more consistent with the jumps.

Yukina Ota: She is a nice skater and very expressive. Her jumping obviously needs a lot of improvement though. So far, I feel like Yukina is a bit overhyped. I feel that she benefits a lot from the frequent comparisons to the other Japanese ladies. What I mean is that everyone seems to expect the Japanese ladies to be short on artistry, so when Yukina comes along *with* artistry, she gets a lot of attention. Whereas a young American skater like Alissa is simply expected to show good artistry, as nearly all the American ladies do. The result is that everyone raves about Yukina's artistry, while taking Alissa's (or Jenny Kirk's, or AP McDonough's, or even Kimmie Meissner's) for granted. I'm not saying she isn't talented, of course, but I do think she's a bit overhyped.

mzheng said:

But it is true that most Asia skaters need more time to develop their expressions and 'performance'.

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Shen and Zhou are the textbook case. When they first came on the scene, it was like, sure, he can throw her into the last row of the balcony like a sack of potatoes, but where's the artistic expression?

Now they take your breath away every time they perform.

eyria said:

Miki Ando: Miki's jumps are amazing--the rest of her skating is not. The COP scoring clearly reflected that (which I think is a good thing).

[SNIP]

Yukina Ota: She is a nice skater and very expressive. Her jumping obviously needs a lot of improvement though. So far, I feel like Yukina is a bit overhyped. I feel that she benefits a lot from the frequent comparisons to the other Japanese ladies. What I mean is that everyone seems to expect the Japanese ladies to be short on artistry, so when Yukina comes along *with* artistry, she gets a lot of attention. Whereas a young American skater like Alissa is simply expected to show good artistry, as nearly all the American ladies do. The result is that everyone raves about Yukina's artistry, while taking Alissa's (or Jenny Kirk's, or AP McDonough's, or even Kimmie Meissner's) for granted. I'm not saying she isn't talented, of course, but I do think she's a bit overhyped.

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I agree with you in some parts. It's as if most people expect japanese ladies to excel at technical merit, but lack artistry. I really like seeing Miki and Yukina. To be fare with both I have only seen them skate once, I believe Yukina was in the FCC last year, and then I saw Miki at worlds. I think CoP will help Miki to improve other areas of her skating. SHe has amazing jumps, so she doesn't need to concentrate in them that much. Yukina is a pleasent skater to watch (she has the air of calmness that I get from Fumie), she needs to be more consistent with her jumps.

If we could pack these two skaters into one, we would have something very interesting to watch lol!!

Mathman said:

Shen and Zhou are the textbook case. When they first came on the scene, it was like, sure, he can throw her into the last row of the balcony like a sack of potatoes, but where's the artistic expression?

Now they take your breath away every time they perform.

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I know!! I just love Shen and Zhao. It's not that asians do not have emotion, they DO! just look at Shen and Zhao skate. The thing is that sometimes not all of them show that emotion as vividly as others.

Did I mention how much I love Shen and Zhao ??

If Sasha Cohen had the warmth and radiance of Yukina Ota, she would truly be tough to beat. Sasha has wonderful moves, but there is something missing when she skates. Peggy Fleming, one of Sasha's biggest admirers, has said she lacks warmth. Yukina has the expressive quality that Sasha lacks.

My 2 cents worth:

I was so happy to see Angela skate and thrilled that she won the competition. True her last 2 jumps were diluted, and she looked tired at the end BUT a great start to her season! I hope she can get some confidence back, be mentally tougher and have a superb season! Bummer we couldn't see her SP (or anyone's for that matter, grrrrrrr) because the announcers said she had a great one!

Miki--well, if truth be told she absolutely bores me. Yes she has wonderful jumping ability and it's nice to see her pushing the technical envelope but I would rather she spend more time working on the other elements of her skating. She is very talented (and looked stunning in her black outfit)--if she can improve her artistry/presentation skills she will be something to watch! Maybe she just needs the right music,...

Cynthia--to me this gal has presence on the ice. I look forward to seeing her skate when she is more comfortable at the senior level. I was a bit surprised that they put her in front of Miki, but I also agreed with it. Miki had some falls and some cheats. Cynthia had a couple of pops but much stronger skating skills.

Ota--I really enjoy watching her skate. Hopefully her jumps will become more consistant.

Looking forward to Skate Canada!

eliza88