The Qualifying Round and Sasha

The Qualifying Round and Sasha

The qualifying round is an important part of the competition. It is not a run through of the LP. It counts for 20 percent of the mark.

IMO, Sasha was undermarked in this round as she did skate a clean routine (no falls). She was put in 3rd place (I thought it should have been first place) and even the Kwaniacs there thought SC should have been first.

After much browsing around the arena, we heard that the judges are against 2 flips in the routine - they do not recognize her doing a lutz! You figure.

Joe

Re: The Qualifying Round and Sasha

Here is a report from Louis, a die hard Sasha fan who seems to know about skating, and had written some articles for Paula. I was there, IMHO it depends on the panel of judges. No one was perfect, different skaters have different strengths. The judges from both groups seem to reward the skaters (MK, and Fumie) with the best basic skating skills. Cohen made a bobble in her stroking, and a wonky landing on her first flutz . EDGE control!! So if judges are rewarding basic skating skills, then qual A should be MK, Cupcake, and Cohen. If judges love to count jumps it should be Cupcake, Cohen and MK. At least both groups of judges were consistent, they rewarded Fumie ahead of Jen and VV, who completed more jumps than Fumie.

groups.yahoo.com/group/Sk...age/111757

2003 Worlds Report
Washington, DC
Wednesday, March 26


Ladies Qualifying A

1. Michelle Kwan (USA) - Concierto de Aranjuez. 3loop,
3flutz/2toe, 3flip, 2axel, 3salchow, 3toe(eked
out)/1toe, 3flutz. Michelle did what Michelle does
best. <strong>No quibble with the placement, as her stroking
and the control of her edges were superior.</strong>
2. Elena Sokolova (RUS) - Hunchback of Notre Dame.
3lutz/3toe, 3lip, 3salchow/3toe, 1loop, 3lutz, 3loop,
2axel. Two triple-triple combinations, both pretty
much fully rotated, and improved speed were working in
her favor. The choppiness of her strokes and the
apparent lack of full-length step sequences (unless I
missed them?) were working against her. Again, no
quibble with the placement.

3. Sasha Cohen (USA) - Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto
No. 2. 3flutz(held on), 3flutz/2toe, 3flip/2toe,
3loop, nice 3toe from a new diagonal entry,
3salchow/2toe, 2axel from Ina Bauer, little stumble on
stroking, 3salchow. This was a major personal victory
-- seven clean triples, including three combinations,
and an almost-perfect program. The program itself,
however, was skated very slowly (even for Sasha) and
without her typical excitement or relation to the
music. <strong>Wasn't robbed at all</strong>, though I wouldn't argue
with those (ahem, David Forberg, ahem) who placed her
first or second on the technical mark, but <strong>I couldn't
justify a presentation mark equal to or better than
Kwan on this day.</strong> Jumps aside the actual program was
skated better at Skate Canada, I thought. Still, this
is a great achievement.

Re: The Qualifying Round and Sasha

Well no wonder the judges don't recognize her doing a Lutz. She barely even attempts to go to the back outside edge, t looks like she is going for the Flip.

I also think the judges were taking off for the major front-loading that she did in her program. Sasha's bad basic skating skills make her rely on her fiesty bravua style which she didn't really portray at the Qualifying Round. She did at the LP though.

Re: The Qualifying Round and Sasha

A flutz to me is when a skater rocks over to the back inside edge at the time of toe picking. In Sasha's case (and I am a fan), she holds the back inside edge a bit too long so she is really doing a flip. That's the way I see it.

Joe

Joesitz

OK, ITA with your definition of a flutz.

It is really interesting to watching skaters like Jen Robinson (and Ryan Bradley). They approach their triple lutz with a long inside edge set up then at the point of launching off they switch to the outside edge, therefore their jumps are legally a lutz.

Here is another review from Ellyn, who is a skater, and had attended judging school.

quote
_______________________________

Personally I would have had the top 4 in group A as

Michelle Kwan 5.7/5.8
Shizuka Arakawa 5.7/5.7
Sasha Cohen 5.5/5.8
Elena Sokolova 5.5/5.7

None of them skated perfectly, Cohen had the cleanest jumps (but a stumble on simple stroking), Sokolova had the hardest jumps, Arakawa had the biggest. Kwan's and Arakawa had much better flow/ice coverage/depth of edge than Cohen and Sokolova. With that big 3lutz-3toe; if Shizuka had only landed that flip and/or picked up more speed and energy with the step sequence, I'd have had her first.
_______________________________

<span style="color:red;font-size:small;">I hate to be a judge of the qual A. I think I post before worlds that I hate to see all 3 American skaters practically have to elimiate each other so early at the qual round.</span>

<span style="colorurple;font-size:medium;">eltamina, totally mesmerized by Fumie's edges!!!!! </span>

Major Problemo

I have a major problem with the qualifying round. There is no way to fairly split up the two groups. It is a very flawed system as far as I am concerned.

Re: Major Problemo

If I were a skater going for the gold, I would love to be placed in the hardest qualifying group with all of my closest rivals. Kick 'em in the teeth from the get-go.

Of course if my goal were just somehow to sneak away with the bronze, it would be a different story.

Mathman

Re: The Qualifying Round and Sasha

Sasha's qualifying round skate sounds like it was great and I am glad for her. Seven triples! Very exciting for her! But, the front-loading is and should be a major factor in determining technical scores. Six triples in two minutes compared to six triples spread out over four makes a huge difference in difficulty. If Sasha put a triple lutz near the end of her program, or at least two triple jumps in the last minute, then that would be first rate difficulty. I think she and Tarasova will probably take this into account for next year, or I hope they will anyway. As for the stumble, sure it's disrupting, but it doesn't sound like it was so terrible. The fall on the camel during the final free skate, now that was disrupting! I sincerely hope Sasha can pull it together next year and finally win a World medal.

Re: The Qualifying Round and Sasha

I do think it's possible that Sasha's qualifying placement should have been higher, but I think the fall in the short is what sunk her battleship. She could have won the short or at least placed second in the short had she skated clean. I just feel like if she had skated better in the short & long, the low qualifying round placement would not have become an issue.

So I'm sad for her, but I understand it.

Re: The Qualifying Round and Sasha

I had this in the Worlds folder but it seems apropos here. There was a discussion and question about luck in skating and the Q round assignments came up. Here's what I posted in the Worlds folder, with one minor edit:

As for the luck thing and the assignments to the Qualifying groups, I would say that luck and the Q groups wasn't just a factor for Sasha, it's just that I was only talking about her. Luck plays a role in everything, for everyone, IMO, but here I think we have some quantifiable evidence of luck, both to some skaters' advantage and to others' disadvantage. I think we can see it when we look at the raw scores from the Q rounds. Note: IceCalc, the USFSA, the Sekret Computer, or somebody did a weird thing with the Q Group scores. For Q Group B (Fumie's group) both IceCalc and the USFSA list 9 scores for both technical and presentation, but for Q Group A (Michelle's group) they list 10 scores for each. Strange things going on in listing the scores--what a surprise Anyway, I figured the average scores for technical, presentation, and combined, so whether it's 9 or 10 total scores, the averages should be a good enough indication of the differences, at least for this purpose. I wonder what happened at Worlds though?

Here are the raw scores for Fumie, Sasha, Jennifer, and Shizuka from their Q rounds in the order in which they finished both for their group and relative to each other:

Q Group B 1 Fumie SUGURI _ _ _ _ JPN_ _ _ _0.4 _ _ _
5.1_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _
5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.9

Q Group B 2_ _ _ _ Jennifer ROBINSON _ _ _ _ CAN_ _ _ _ 0.8_ _ _ _
5.2_ _ _ _ 5.2_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _
5.2_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7

Q Group A 3_ _ _ _ Sasha COHEN _ _ _ _ USA_ _ _ _ 1.2_ _ _ _
5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.9_ _ _ _
5.1_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.9

Q Group A 4_ _ _ _ Shizuka ARAKAWA _ _ _ _ JPN_ _ _ _ 1.6_ _ _ _
5.4_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _
5.3_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7

Fumie's average for technical is 5.47, presentation 5.72, combined 5.595.
Sasha's average for technical is 5.69, presentation 5.71, combined 5.700.
Jennifer's average for technical is 5.40, presentation 5.48, combined 5.440.
Shizuka's average for technical is 5.55, presentation 5.54, combined 5.545.

In the combined results, based on ordinals, these skaters finished in the this order:
Fumie 1st 5.595 Average Combined Score
Jennifer 3rd 5.440
Sasha 5th 5.700
Shizuka 7th 5.545

If you went by average score, which I realize they don't, the order of just these four skaters, not counting anybody else, would be:
Sasha 5.700
Fumie 5.595
Shizuka 5.545
Jennifer 5.440

<<Edited to add: I don't know if it was the same panel of judges for each Q group or not, but in any case, it would seem that the judges, at least in terms of average scores, did reward Sasha more than they did Fumie, Shizuka, and Jennifer for their respective programs.>>

So, IMO, for some skaters their Q group assignment, relative to how well they skated vs. how they finished in the combined results, was an advantage (lucky) and for others it was a disadvantage (unlucky). For example, Fumie landed four triples in her Q round program; Sasha landed six. Also, in this case, had Sokolova not been in the same Q group as Michelle, it's doubtful it would have made a difference in the final standings. However, had Elena been in the other Q group, thus being tied with Michelle going into the SP and landed her second 3/3 in the finals, it might have made the difference between silver and gold. I realize there are always "what ifs" and "if onlys" after every competition (sometimes for years after ), but for me the Q round assignments and results are just an example of the role luck plays for every skater. Next year it could just as easily go the other way for Sasha and Fumie (don't know if Jen and Shizuka are competing next season).

So Dr. Watson, we assume Holmes is on the case of the extra score for Qualifying Group A. Any clues thus far that you can reveal?
Rgirl


Scores for top five or six in each group and combined results of top eight, FYI.
Qualifying Group A
SPl._ _ _ _ Name_ _ _ _ Nat._ _ _ _ Points_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
1_ _ _ _ Michelle KWAN _ _ _ _ USA_ _ _ _ 0.4_ _ _ _
5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _
5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.9_ _ _ _ 5.9_ _ _ _ 5.9_ _ _ _ 5.9
2_ _ _ _ Elena SOKOLOVA _ _ _ _ RUS_ _ _ _ 0.8_ _ _ _
5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.9_ _ _ _ 5.9_ _ _ _
5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.9_ _ _ _ 5.9
3_ _ _ _ Sasha COHEN _ _ _ _ USA_ _ _ _ 1.2_ _ _ _
5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.9_ _ _ _
5.1_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.9
4_ _ _ _ Shizuka ARAKAWA _ _ _ _ JPN_ _ _ _ 1.6_ _ _ _
5.4_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _
5.3_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7
5_ _ _ _ Elena LIASHENKO _ _ _ _ UKR_ _ _ _ 2.0_ _ _ _
4.8_ _ _ _ 4.9_ _ _ _ 4.9_ _ _ _ 5.0_ _ _ _ 5.0_ _ _ _ 5.0_ _ _ _ 5.1_ _ _ _ 5.1_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _
4.7_ _ _ _ 5.0_ _ _ _ 5.1_ _ _ _ 5.1_ _ _ _ 5.2_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.6
6_ _ _ _ Sarah HUGHES _ _ _ _ USA_ _ _ _ 2.4_ _ _ _
4.7_ _ _ _ 4.8_ _ _ _ 4.9_ _ _ _ 4.9_ _ _ _ 5.1_ _ _ _ 5.1_ _ _ _ 5.2_ _ _ _ 5.2_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _
5.0_ _ _ _ 5.0_ _ _ _ 5.1_ _ _ _ 5.2_ _ _ _ 5.2_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.7

Qualifying Group B
SPl._ _ _ _ Name_ _ _ _ Nat._ _ _ _ Points_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
1_ _ _ _ Fumie SUGURI _ _ _ _ JPN_ _ _ _ 0.4_ _ _ _
5.1_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _
5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.8_ _ _ _ 5.9
2_ _ _ _ Jennifer ROBINSON _ _ _ _ CAN_ _ _ _ 0.8_ _ _ _
5.2_ _ _ _ 5.2_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _
5.2_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.7_ _ _ _ 5.7
3_ _ _ _ Viktoria VOLCHKOVA _ _ _ _ RUS_ _ _ _ 1.2_ _ _ _
5.1_ _ _ _ 5.2_ _ _ _ 5.2_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _
5.3_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6
4_ _ _ _ Yoshie ONDA _ _ _ _ JPN_ _ _ _ 1.6_ _ _ _
5.2_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _ 5.6_ _ _ _
4.8_ _ _ _ 5.0_ _ _ _ 5.1_ _ _ _ 5.2_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5
5_ _ _ _ Ludmila NELIDINA _ _ _ _ RUS_ _ _ _ 2.0_ _ _ _
4.7_ _ _ _ 5.1_ _ _ _ 5.2_ _ _ _ 5.2_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.4_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5_ _ _ _ 5.5
4.6_ _ _ _ 5.0_ _ _ _ 5.0_ _ _ _ 5.0_ _ _ _ 5.1_ _ _ _ 5.1_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.3_ _ _ _ 5.4

Combined Results — Qualifying Groups A and B
FPl._ _ _ _ Name_ _ _ _ Nat._ _ _ _ Points_ _ _ _ QA_ _ _ _ QB
1_ _ _ _ Michelle KWAN _ _ _ _ USA_ _ _ _ 0.4_ _ _ _ 1
1_ _ _ _ Fumie SUGURI _ _ _ _ JPN_ _ _ _ 0.4_ _ _ _ 1
3_ _ _ _ Jennifer ROBINSON _ _ _ _ CAN_ _ _ _ 0.8_ _ _ _ 2
3_ _ _ _ Elena SOKOLOVA _ _ _ _ RUS_ _ _ _ 0.8_ _ _ _ 2
5_ _ _ _ Sasha COHEN _ _ _ _ USA_ _ _ _ 1.2_ _ _ _ 3
5_ _ _ _ Viktoria VOLCHKOVA _ _ _ _ RUS_ _ _ _ 1.2_ _ _ _ 3
7_ _ _ _ Shizuka ARAKAWA _ _ _ _ JPN_ _ _ _ 1.6_ _ _ _ 4
7_ _ _ _ Yoshie ONDA _ _ _ _ JPN_ _ _ _ 1.6_ _ _ _ 4

Re: The Qualifying Round and Sasha

There were 10 judges for QA, and 9 for QB

<span style="color:red;font-size:medium;">Congratulations Fumie</span>

<span style="color:red;font-size:x-small;">eltamina, totally mesmerized by Fumie's edges</span>

Re: The Qualifying Round and Sasha

Mystery solved:lol:

Re: The Qualifying Round and Sasha

How strange, you'd think they'd have a replacement judge to fill the 10th slot (Being the World Championships and all!). I'm not a huge fan of the qualifying round counting towards the final placement. I prefer the traditional style the Olympics have maintained. It's so exciting when a skater in 3rd or 4th can actually win the gold medal.

Question, did Sasha land seven triples or six? I've read some reports that said she had a wild landing on the second lutz but it seems unclear whether it was deemed as clean.

Sasha

Sasha landed 7 triples, however, the landing was really wild on one and she probably didn't receive full credit. From what I understand, she lands on the wrong edge quite often and it makes the landings look a bit jerky. She also made a slip up on her footwork and, from what I heard, she skated a little too tight--like she was thinking too much through it. I think this cost her first place.

Re: The Qualifying Round and Sasha

The reason that the ladies qualifying group B had only nine judges is that at the last minute the Hungarian judge, Judit Furst-Tombor, was dismissed from the panel for supporting the new WSF:

"A Hungarian figure skating judge was removed from the panel for the women's event Wednesday, punishment for being a founding member of the World Skating Federation.

"Judit Furst-Tombor was one of 10 judges chosen to judge Group B in the women's qualifying event at the World Figure Skating Championships.

"But 15 minutes before she was to report, Furst-Tombor said she received a letter from the president of the Hungarian skating federation withdrawing her from the panel."

espn.go.com/oly/news/2003...30039.html

Watson

Re: The Qualifying Round and Sasha

Rgirl, about the luck factor. Everything that happens you can look back and say, I had bad luck. But in sports the key is to take advantage of your good luck.

Sasha, Sarah, Elena and Michelle all had the good luck to be placed in the tough qualifying group, giving them each the opportunity to knock their main competiton off the gold medal track if they could.

Mathman

Re: The Qualifying Round and Sasha

Mathman - That Qualifying Round was a deuzy and I just thought it was for being seeded in the SP but NO it counted and it cost some skaters.

Joe

Re: The Qualifying Round and Sasha

I'd have to agree with Louis' assessment of the qualifying's. Thanks for posting that Eltamina. I had met Louis at World's but didn't get a chance to get his assessment while I was there.

Sasha finally did get her perfect skate in the qualifying round, but it came with a price. She lost her speed and emotion while doing it. It was almost painful to see the difference in practice and then in competition. I hope that she will be able to get the concentration and the emotion together in one program soon.

If you just want to count connect the dot jumping, then Sokolova would have won the qualifying with Sasha in second and Michelle in third. Thank God that some judges still judge skating as an overall package. Sasha and Elena were painfully slow. I started timing their crossovers at the end of the rink. I've only skated for a few months and I have better speed than that. Granted I don't have the best basic stroking and I'm not planning on skating into triple jumps, but you would hope that skaters at that level could get more speed than that.

Re: The Qualifying Round and Sasha

Forgot to add with this final thought.

Overall, Qualifying A was much more exciting to watch. All 3 should be extremely proud of how they skated. Michelle because the queen is back and happy. Sasha for her perfect skate. Elena for her two 3/3 combos. It was a thrill to watch them all.

Sasha and the QR

Sasha did get the shaft in the QR, for two reasons. One judge gave her a 5.1 what was up with that?! And of the top skaters, she was hit hardest by the uneven qualifying groups. I cannot say Sasha was screwed overall, though, because she doomed herself by falling in the SP and LP.

From the reports I read, it seems that Sasha got marked behind MK because of MK's much better speed, stroking, edges and a better balanced program. Elena got the nod over Sasha because of her two 3/3s. Also Sasha apparently is flutzing, whereas MK and Elena are not. (Several sources have said MK did NOT flutz -- perhaps Louis is thinking of last year?). It should be noted, however, that Sasha's QR performance would have easily won Group B.

I believe the judges grade a flutz as a flawed lutz, not a flip.