Michelle's amazing intuition

excellent point

Yes, that's an excellent point. It would have been impossible for Tara to win at Nagano without her 3-3 combo. The only thing that would have allowed Sarah to possibly still win is the fact that Michelle and Irina had less than stellar skates, but even then, I think that they would have placed Irina above Sarah if Sarah didn't have those 3-3s. As it was, there was a 5-4 split between them.

For better or for worse, some skaters absolutely need 3-3s, some do not. Typically, you need them if you need to compensate for lack of artistry, flow, edging, spins, etc. Conversely, you'd better be an amazing artist without the 3-3 (e.g. Michelle).

Kristi Y.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Aside from that, did Kristi ever land any other 3/3s?[/quote]
Kristi completed a 3flip/hop/3toe sequence at 1991 Nationals (finishing second behind Harding) and again at 1991 Worlds, which she won.

Re: Kristi in 92

you are exactly right - Kristi was a VERY smart skater - she knew when she needed the big combinations, and when she did she did them.... even when Midori wasn't really in the championship (1991 for example when Midori's short program put her right out of the competition), Kristi did a triple flip/falling leaf/ triple toe combo... and yes, Tonya Harding was also there with her triple axel and other various triples, but no triple/triple combo herself, and weak artistry. So really, there was no way that Kristi would have lost that world championship short of her falling during her program. She didn't really need to push herself that way but she did it. And she was very capable of doing it. That's the difference between Kristi and Michelle.

Re: Kristi in 92

That's an interesting point. Did Tonya skate prior to Kristi in the 91' Free skate? If so, I can see how Kristi might have known she would win if she could skate cleanly.

However, had Tonya skated cleanly in her free skate in '91, I'm pretty sure Tonya had a great chance to win. When Tonya was on, the artistry factor seemed to go out of the window and the judges would reward her regardless of what the others did. Tonya did end up beating Kristi at Skate America later that year. Although I'm not sure what jumps Kristi did, Tonya did do her 3A in both programs, and that seemed to outweigh Kristi's artistic advantage and whatever combos she did.

With the exception of the 3-3, I don't think Kristi's 2nd place free skate in 1992 and Michelle's 3rd place free skate in 2002 were all that different. Both had multiple mistakes, both did 2 lutzes, but Michelle had to compete against more consistent competitors who skated cleanly, while Kristi's competitors were either too far out of contention due to SP mistakes, or they made far too many mistakes in their FS to beat her overall.

All apologies to Kristi of course, because she absolutely ruled and earned all of her titles.

Re: Kristi in 92

actually tonya did skate prior to kristi at that world championship. So she knew what she needed to do, and she went out and did everything anyway.
And remember that world judges are different than national judges.... it is a common trend.... Kristi was more accepted in the international community despite tonya's triple axel... and even if tonya had not popped that triple toe loop combo that followed her triple axel, she wouldn't have won... Kristi was receiving 6.0's for artistic impression....
As far as the differences in the fields of skaters in '92 and 2002...... kristi's still had to contend with Midori who still pulled off the triple axel, and Nancy Kerrigan... not the best skate but still..... Kristi had room but not THAT much room....
Michelle's main competitor lost it in qualifying and in the short - sasha cohen.... and Irina wasn't even there to challenge.... Sarah was out before it began (realistically speaking).... so who does that leave? not very many TOP quality competitors... not to say Fumie and others were not good... but I think it's safe to say that the ones mentioned previously are better for the most part.....I think most would agree that, if skated cleanly, the programs by Michelle, Sasha, Sarah, and Irina would be the top programs....

Re: Michelle's amazing intuition

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And remember that world judges are different than national judges.... it is a common trend.... Kristi was more accepted in the international community despite tonya's triple axel... and even if tonya had not popped that triple toe loop combo that followed her triple axel, she wouldn't have won... Kristi was receiving 6.0's for artistic impression....[/quote]

That is probably true, Kristi was amazing. I do consider Skate America to be an international event even if it was held in the US. Does anyone remember what elements the 2 skaters executed in that competetion? Did Kristi do her 3-3?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As far as the differences in the fields of skaters in '92 and 2002...... kristi's still had to contend with Midori who still pulled off the triple axel, and Nancy Kerrigan... not the best skate but still..... Kristi had room but not THAT much room....[/quote]

I agree. They had a higher degree of difficulty. I was referring more to the actual performances at 2002 SLC and 1992 Albertville. Irina, while shaky, did skate fairly cleanly. Sarah skated great, and due to Irina's somewhat clean skate nudging down Kwan, Sarah had a shot at Gold with her great performance.

In 1992, I think Nancy, Midori, Tonya, and Surya were inconsistent with their elements at the competiton for different reasons. I don't think anyone had a 'great' overall competiton per se. Kristi didn't skate cleanly either, but she was less inconsistent/more consistent than the others. A clean free skate for Nancy (with all of her triples completed) could have meant big changes in the medals, but Nancy wasn't able to take advantage of Kristi's mistakes. Midori had a great free, but from down in 4th place with no other skater to help her move up. Kristi didn't have beat a clean free skate from a 'nearby' competitor, even though she didn't know that at the time she skated.

It's an interesting scenario to think about.

Keep in mind...

It is also important to note that Michelle has been under a lot more public scrutiny than Kristi was during her amateur career. This has been largely due to the resurgence of ladies figure skating as a result of Kristi's Olympic win and then the Tonya-Nancy scandal. Consequently, the media and the public were hungry to crown the next Kristi/Dorothy/Peggy, and Michelle was there, ready to bloom.

My point in bringing this up is that as a result of the heavy media attention from an early age, it means that it is more difficult for Michelle to take risks. When Michelle falls or loses, it's major news, and so it is likely that she'd rather skate a clean, beautiful program as opposed to taking the risk of falling on a 3-3 (beyond the obvious risks of injury). And I think this is all understandable. Michelle might be a 5-time World Champion, 7-time National Champion, etc., but she's still human.

It wasn't quite as dramatic of a situation for Kristi in terms of media attention. If Kristi had lost in the Olympics as a result of major falls, sure, it would have made news, but it wouldn't have been deemed as a major failure the way it has often been portrayed for Michelle. Likewise, for Sarah Hughes, she could take the risk of two 3-3s, because beyond the fact that she needed them to win, if she had missed the combinations, it wouldn't have been viewed as a major disaster.

Re: Keep in mind...

".................It is also important to note that Michelle has been under a lot more public scrutiny than Kristi was during her amateur career........."

I disagree... Kristi fell under tremendous pressure.... resulting from the 16 year absence of a ladies olympic gold medalist from the United States.... it would have been a devastating loss considering she was coming into the Olympics as the world champion....

Michelle on the other hand is no stranger to the scrutiny of which you speak... she came up through the ranks with it... she is used to it... it is something as commonplace for her as going to practice everyday....

"............as opposed to taking the risk of falling on a 3-3 (beyond the obvious risks of injury). ........"

All elements present risk of injury... a spin a spiral... anything.... risk is put on the back burner once that skater has laced up the skates.... it's not as if she would be trying something for the first time.....

however

In many ways, though, Kristi was not the favorite going into the Olympics. It was Midori. Plus, there was also the possibility of Tonya landing the 3A (she did just beat Kristi at Nationals the year before, although she was clearly out of shape in 1992). My point is that Kristi wasn't quite considered the "sure thing" or the "absolutely must win" candidate in the way that Michelle has been. And actually, I would argue that the lack of a US ladies champion back in the early then relieved some pressure. While there is always pressure for the US National Champion, it's not like there was an immediate Olympic legacy to protect. And also, while skating has always been popular, it didn't get quite the publicity it does today back in the early 1990s, largely because of the lack of a US champion since Dorothy. Kristi's Olympic victory started a new wave of popularity for the sport and, in turn, a resurgance of US dominance in the ladies event.

Of course Michelle is no stranger to pressure or media attention. My point is that being considered such the ultimate favorite (especially when she has had a history of scoring 6.0s) often creates the feeling that you ABSOLUTELY cannot afford to make a mistake because you will be ABSOLUTELY humiliated, and hence you are less likely to risk a 3-3 (particularly when you have shown that you can often win without it). And again, I think this is a totally natural response to the situation. I repeat - Michelle is human.

Re: however

I think you would have been in the minority back then.... Midori was not the favorite because everyone kept brining up the artistic factor.... if Midori didn't hit everything perfectly she had no chance of winning, even if Kristi did make a mistake or two.... if they had both skated cleanly, the edge would have gone to kristi because of the artistry factor.... as always the tie breaker....

And I still believe that kristi was facing a large amount of pressure for that gold medal.... debi thomas had failed to do it 4 years earlier... it was clearly building to kristi to win it all and get the US back on top.... and michelle's pressure this year wasn't olympic gold.... it was world gold which she has apparently succeeded in capturing many times... nothing she hasn't faced before .... and I don't think falling on a triple/triple combination would humiliate anyone (it's a difficult thing to do) especially Michelle since her embarrassment at nationals in 1997 was probably as bad as it could get......not her best performance by any means...

Kristi, Midori and the early 90s

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Tonya did end up beating Kristi at Skate America later that year. Although I'm not sure what jumps Kristi did[/quote]

Kristi fell on her 3lutz/3toe combo at Skate America that year. It was the only time she missed it. She landed it at Lalique, did a 3lutz/hop/3toe sequence at Nationals, and then nailed the combo at both the Olympics and Worlds.

Harding skated before Kristi at 1991 Worlds in Munich and did a perfect 3axel. But she reduced her 3/3 and 3/2 combo jumps to 2/2 and 2/2. This opened the door for Kristi. Remember that in 1991, Kristi was beginning to pull away from the pack artistically.

Kristi was certainly under pressure at the 1992 Olympics. She was the defending WC, after all. But I think Harding was considered as much as a favorite. To some extent, Kristi got written off as inferior because she didn't have the 3axel. Her coach, Christy Ness, actually complained in Newsweek, "This thing was never meant to be a pole vault."

Of all the ladies, Midori was under the most pressure, trying to become the first Japanese woman to win Olympic Gold. The tension may have been heightened by that fact that one of her main competitors was Japanese-American. Tracy Wilson said that at in Albertville, the Japanese sports media would give nightly updates on the Yamaguchi-Ito battle. The fact that the top two competitors for Olympic Gold were of Japanese descent was largely overlooked by the U.S. Media, but I suspect may have been a much bigger deal in Japan, a country which takes a lot of pride in its heritage. It makes me wonder what Japan's perceptions of Kristi were at the time.