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Thread: Ladies Free - Notes & Results

  1. #16
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    Ladiezzz Ice Dancing (NOT a sport)

    If this is the way it's going to be, like at SkateAmerica (where difficulty wasn't recognized ala Miki Ando, but rather pops & safe skating were), then Sasha Cohen & Michelle Kwan will kick a** big time (hopefully Shizuka Arakawa as well)! And I say "YES", b/c I'd rather have them win everything under the sun then the winners of the last two Grand Prix competitions, including tonight's.

    That said, I expect Sasha Cohen to dominate ALL competitions once she gets on her feet again (just like she did last year during the Grand Prix when COP was first introduced). No need to work on difficulty anymore ~ safe skating will win for her (aka 4 clean solo triples, doesn't even matter if they're all the same; just put in her best triple jump four times over & add a bunch of 2axels for good measure) ~ and then throw in her pretty extended spirals, fast unique spins, and winning presentation. Has it in the bag; can even fall two times like tonight's winner & only get .1 taken off for each fall b/c in the long run it won't matter (her SP points will put her so far ahead of the field that she can come in last in the FS & still win). Next will be a toss up between Michelle Kwan & Shizuka Arakawa for 2nd & 3rd. All others can literally knock themselves out doing everything under the sun......trying Quads, Triple Axels, Triple-Triple Combinations, et al.....but won't make a difference since difficulty no longer matters (& that's the honest to God's truth). They will be vying for 4th place & below, no ifs/whats/buts about it. In fact, no need to watch the FS anymore, the SP will tell the tale, just like in the old days when the winner of the SP was so far ahead of the field that s/he only needed to play it safe during the FS in order to win the whole she-bang.

    Sincerely, Nadine

    P.S. Oh yeah, no incentive anymore for the ladies to try quads & triple axels, since one gets double-whammied for it (aka quad is counted as a triple & 3A as a 2A, then points taken off for GOE, since neither is recognized as such in the first place). Also, same goes for 3/3s, second triple is counted as a double & points taken off for GOE. Skating has taken a huge leap backwards in time.

  2. #17
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadine
    Skating has taken a huge leap backwards in time.
    Nadine you can say that again and I'm very disappointed. Although I admire good presentation skills and all but figure skating is still a sport and this absurd COP will discourage any skaters to defy technical difficulties(jumps). They all will start playing safe as that's what counts more.... oh well

  3. #18
    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nadine
    P.S. Oh yeah, no incentive anymore for the ladies to try quads & triple axels, since one gets double-whammied for it (aka quad is counted as a triple & 3A as a 2A, then points taken off for GOE, since neither is recognized as such in the first place). Also, same goes for 3/3s, second triple is counted as a double & points taken off for GOE. Skating has taken a huge leap backwards in time
    with all the things I like about CoP, this would be in the no-noes. It really is not fair that a skater tries a jump, doesn't do it right and to top it all it gets recognize as a lesser one and taken the points out of it. That really needs to be changed. In fact, I believe I read somewhere that if someone changes, lets say, from a triple to a quad, they have deductions ? can someone verify this, perhaps I'm mistaken.

  4. #19
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    A BEAUTIFUL photo of Susanna Poykio and ladies´ podium photo, both by George Rossano:

    http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/curre...ca2004%20l.htm (scroll down)

    Marjaana

  5. #20
    GOLDEN DREAMS RealtorGal's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link. I thought this was a funny passage:

    Onda said, "I am very happy with my program today and happy to be training in the United States.” Weisinger does not speak Japanese and Onda is just learning English. “Her coach said,” When we started working together, I would write her notes in English and she would type them into a translator to figure out what I was saying to her.”

  6. #21
    http://p068.ezboard.com/bstrawberrycanyonfsc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikaru
    with all the things I like about CoP, this would be in the no-noes. It really is not fair that a skater tries a jump, doesn't do it right and to top it all it gets recognize as a lesser one and taken the points out of it. That really needs to be changed. In fact, I believe I read somewhere that if someone changes, lets say, from a triple to a quad, they have deductions ? can someone verify this, perhaps I'm mistaken.
    What happens is if they fail in the attempt, it gets downgraded, then the deductions come in. They get deductions for a poorly executed triple, say, if they try a quad toe loop...then, if they have other triple toes in the program, forget it! They get the Zayak deductions, too, for repeating a jump!

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikaru
    with all the things I like about CoP, this would be in the no-noes. It really is not fair that a skater tries a jump, doesn't do it right and to top it all it gets recognize as a lesser one and taken the points out of it. That really needs to be changed. In fact, I believe I read somewhere that if someone changes, lets say, from a triple to a quad, they have deductions ? can someone verify this, perhaps I'm mistaken.
    Firstly, Hikaru, you are mistaken about there being a deduction if a skater plans a quad and changes to a triple. There is NO deduction. It doesn't matter what a skater has planned for their program, it matters what they execute. Now, on the flip side of the coin, a skater who attempts a quad but under rotates it and falls, would only receive credit for the triple jump AND would have a deduction for the fall and GOE. This is where we are seeing many points lost. For example, yesterday, a skater under rotated a 3 lutz, and had a fall. Rather than being marked at 5.3 (I think this is the base score) for the triple, they recieved a 2.8 (again I think this is the score) PLUS they recieved -1 for the fall, therefore only scoring a mere 1.8 pts. for a triple lutz attempt.

    As for those nay sayers who are condemning Cynthia's win with 2 falls, I think this is a perfect showing of how this new CoP system can benefit SKATING and not jumping. I remember countless threads in this forum about skating becoming all about jumps and there was no reward for artistry, extension, spins, spirals, footwork, and all those other things that make for a beautiful sport. Cynthia won her Skate Canada gold medal on the credit of her skating, NOT her jumping. The reason she was able to stay ahead of Onda was on the grace of all those other things. Onda only had Level 1 spins/footwork/spiral sequences, while Cynthia had Level 2 on all of those other elements. CoP is finally rewarding all those other important elements and thats why we are seeing some of the unusual results this year. Had the old 6.0 system been in force for this even, I would venture to say Cynthia would have been lucky to even make the podium.

    The bottom line is we can't have it both ways, people. You can't complain that skating is becoming all about jumps and only the jumpers win medals and then turn around and complain that she had 2 falls on jumps, and therefore didn't deserve the win. Cynthia Phaneuf was rewarded for SKATING excellence, NOT jumping ability, which is what 99% of us here prefer to see.

    Now as to the comments about MK and Sasha Cohen benefitting and winning everything with the new CoP, I couldn't agree more. Of course it will happen, because they skate at a level far and above most of the other skaters. They too will be winning their medals on spins, spirals, footwork, and artistry, NOT on jumps.

    I don't feel at all that skating has taken steps backwards, rather the opposite. The whole package finally matters, as was proven this weekend at SC.

    As another example, Jeff Buttle did not have his best skate, but by the grace of his artistry and technique on the "in between stuff" he was able to stay ahead. Jeff Buttle only scored 9th in the technical score but was 1st in the component score, making his FS score 5th overall. When did you ever see that with the 6.0? Presentation marks used to basically follow the technical marks within .1 or .2 Jeff's high scores in the component mark brought his FS up to 5th place overall, while on the 6.0 he surely would have placed no better than perhaps 7th or 8th.

    Additionally, when on the 6.0 system would we EVER have seen a skater move from 7th after the short to winning the event overall? Emanuel Sandhu did that with a brillian performance last night. He didn't have to depend on the others to fall apart to move him up the ladder - he had to depend on himself to pull out all the stops. With the old system, it wouldn't have mattered if every other skater had popped singles for every jump, there is no way a 7th place skater would have been able to elevate to #1.

    I think we are seeing some extremely interesting results this year, and I truly believe this CoP is definitely a step in the right direction.

    Canuck

  8. #23
    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8tngcanuck
    Firstly, Hikaru, you are mistaken about there being a deduction if a skater plans a quad and changes to a triple. There is NO deduction. It doesn't matter what a skater has planned for their program, it matters what they execute
    Ouch!, ok, Sorry, my mistake. But actually I wasn't talking of a skater planning a quad and changing it later on for a triple. It was the contrary, planning a triple, and THEN changing it for a quad, for example. The reason I mention this, is because I read this document on the ISU website:

    JS 12 Singles - GOE Short Program

    On page 2, they mention the following
    "If a skater has more revolutions in a jump than described (e.g. quadruple instead of a triple jump), the Judges GOE must be in the “minus grades”
    for that element an the value of the jump will be change to the value of a jump with revolution required"

    They do not mention this in the free skate though, but then again, what does this mean? if a skater changes a triple for a quad, do they get penalized? I'm confuse yet again.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antilles
    Keep in mind that, even with two falls, Phaneuf completed the same amount of triples that Onda did-five. Therefore I don't have a problem with her finishing ahead of Onda. Onda's performance wasn't exactly perfect, either. Though she's come a long way artistically, I think Phaneuf still beats her in that category.
    It is not just the number of jumps. I thought the COP was going to deduct some points for falls on jumps.

    I agree with Mathman. The judges just decide which skater they like more, and give higher component marks to that skater. How can one skater be better than another in absolutely every category? The judges are not marking the way they should. I don't know if that would have changed the final result, but it does show a flaw in the system that could create very strange results in major competitions where there are more skilled skaters.

    Vash

  10. #25
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    About Nadine's basic complaint, I don't see any reason a priori why the switch to the CoP should cause the sport to become any more "artistic" or any less "athletic." Cynthia Phaneuf just won this event even though she fell twice on triple jump attempts. If anything, this ought to encourage skaters to try the hardest stuff in their arsenals, because (unlike the 6.0 ordinal system) a fall is not necessarily disastrous.

    Also, the CoP has a built-in mechanism for maintaining a balance between the technical scores and the component scores. Right now the factor is 1.6. You multiply the TCS by 1.6 before addiing it to the total tech score. If this ratio gets out of balance, the 1.6 can be changed (to 1.5, for instance). Unfortunately we won't get to see Michelle (6 perfectly ececuted triples, two in combination, together with 6.0 artistry, at Campbell's) and Sasha in the Grand Prix this year, so we won't have the gold standard in both tech and presentation before us in making this judgment.

    I look forward to seeing what kind of scores Shizuka will get. Last year Sasha got total scores of 197. That's 40 points higher than the winning totals this year. I can't believe that Sasha is that much better, so they must have made a lot of adjustments between last year and this.

    That was the complaint of the Russian federation. That the CoP is at best a work in progress, and it won't really be ready in time for Worlds in March.

    Will the CoP push the strongest athletes to even greater heights? Well, if everything else had been the same, but Yoshie Onda had done a triple Axel (9 points) she would have won Skate Canada.

    Mathman

    PS. I second Hikaru's question about the rule for an extra revolution in the SP. I did not understand what that rules means, either. Can anyone help?
    Last edited by Mathman; 10-31-2004 at 01:10 PM.

  11. #26
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    The skaters and the judges need to adjust to the new scoring system. The first few years are the experimental stage. The problems is the standards for component scores are yet to be established. What is a 7 suppose to look like? Is 10 unattainable? What is excellent? 8 or 9?. Is average 5? Since the system will be used by all levels eventually you've got to save the 1,2, and 3's for the lower levels. I'm sure there are some guidelines but I don't think most of us know what it is. Everybody can have a different idea of what constitutes average, above average, good, very good, and excellent.

    I am going to be interested to see what kind of component marks Arakawa gets. We've had 2 competitions without arguably the 3 best presentation skaters in the world. The total scores have been much lower than the higest scores of last year. Nobody has come near Sasha and Evgeny's totals. Have they changed the component stadards? Will everyone be marked lower? We may have an idea next week at NHK and when Plushy skates at CoR.

  12. #27
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    CoP

    Is it safe to say that winning or doing the very best in the SP sets a buffer zone/scale up for skaters that may bomb in the LP? Does is seems that some skaters with faulty jumps, but good artistry can win it all with an "x" amount of falls?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8tngcanuck
    The bottom line is we can't have it both ways, people. You can't complain that skating is becoming all about jumps and only the jumpers win medals and then turn around and complain that she had 2 falls on jumps, and therefore didn't deserve the win. Cynthia Phaneuf was rewarded for SKATING excellence, NOT jumping ability, which is what 99% of us here prefer to see.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    How can one skater be better than another in absolutely every category?
    The problem I see is that instead of evaluating whether the judges' scores deviate from the written code, they are evaluating how much the judges deviate from each other. That drags everyone down to the lowest common denominator.

  15. #30
    All Hail Queen Yu-Na!!!!!! SailorGalaxia518's Avatar
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    Cynthia Phaneuf won because she skated better artistically than Yoshie Onda. I am glad Yoshie is getting better with her artistry. It will be great to see Phaneuf at the Grand Prix Final. She may have potential to get into the top six at worlds. Who knows?

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