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Thread: Ladies Free - Notes & Results

  1. #31
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    I want to congratulate Cynthia on a well deserved win.

    For those who are still a little upset about the results, she did land the same number of jumps as Yoshie did; the jumps she missed simply didn't mare the program. The rest of the program was well balanced and her presentation skills were better than Yoshie.

    I think in this case, the right person won.

    Lise

  2. #32
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    I agree with Nadine. Skating has taken a huge leap backward. First (in the 6.0) it was all about jumps. Now it's all about everything else, and jumps don't matter. The problem is that there are no standards to determine the components scores, other than who the judges like better. That is totally subjective, and it is very easy for a judge to manipulate those. Even the 6.0 system had well defined criteria for presentation marks. We are going to see some very strange results before the year is over.
    Last edited by Vash01; 11-01-2004 at 04:35 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    I agree with Nadine. Skating has taken a huge leap backward. First (in the 6.0) it was all about jumps. Now it's all about everything else, and jumps don't matter.
    I don't think we can really say this. Looking at the breakdown in the technical scores for Phaneuf, for instance:

    The base value for Cythia's whole program was 52.0. Of this, 39.7 was for jumps and only 12.3 was for spins, moves in the field, etc. So more than 75% of the tech score was about jumps.

    Of the potential 39.7 points, Cynthia actually earned 32.7 points. Her two falls cost her dearly (as they should). On her 3Lz, instead of the 6.6 base value she received only 2.6 points after the mandatory -3 GoE and -1 dedection. On her 3S, with a base value of 5.0, she ended up with only 1.0 points after the negative GOE and deduction.

    Yoshie Onda had a base value of 39.0 for jumps and 11.7 for all other technical elements. Again more than three-quarters of the tech score was for jumps. Yoshie's base value was a little less than Cynthia's because Yoshie doubled one of her jumps and so only got a base value of 1.3 (and a GOE of -0.48 to boot).

    Her actual score for jumps, after factoring in the GOEs, was 36.52. So Yoshie gained about 4 points over Cynthia on her jumps, heavily reflecting Cynthia's two falls.

    I do not have any big problem with this breakdown. Jumps are still where it's at. Landing the jumps is all-important, as well as the difficulty and quality (don't pop your triple into a wonky double).

    Then there are the component scores. As with any judging system, this is subjective. It is pretty hard to lay down objective criteria for who interpreted their music best. (Did you like Irina's Tosca better, or Michelle's?) I don't think that any judging system will be able to take the judging out of judging.

    So overall, I do not see any big problems with CoP judging at this event. (Even though I had Yoshie in the GS picks contest )

    Mathman
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-01-2004 at 08:43 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    I agree with Nadine. Skating has taken a huge leap backward. First (in the 6.0) it was all about jumps. Now it's all about everything else, and jumps don't matter. The problem is that there are no standards to determine the components scores, other than who the judges like better. That is totally subjective, and it is very easy for a judge to manipulate those. Even the 6.0 system had well defined criteria for presentation marks. We are going to see some very strange results before the year is over.
    Absolutely, Vash. the theory behind the CoP is the biggest innovation in judging figure skating, really gets to the whole sport! But the human element is still in there. The random drawings, the dropping of highs and lows, will help to rid some of the national and ethnic biases but not totally, and cheating on the plus and minuses on the component scores are going to prevail, if not deliberate, they will be scored subjectively. If they would allow for judges' names and nationalities to be shown, this would cut down the cheating 90 per cent and for non cheating, we would understand the rationale of biased judging. JMO.

    In spite of all this, I do think we are heading in the right direction. I think eventually, the names and nationalities of the judges will be known to the public.

    Joe

  5. #35
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    Joe -- I, too, hope they throw out the secret jugding before the Olympics, and the random draw, too. The effect of the random draw could just as well increase the effect of regional bias as diminish it.

    The whole point of the CoP, pushed through under pressure form the IOC, was to address the public perception that the whole sport was just a cold war political football, with the winner determined (in advance) by whomever could finagle, pressure or bribe his way into a position of influence.

    IMO the random draw and the secrecy aspects of the new judging system will make casual fans, who watch the sport only every four years, just roll their eyes and mutter, "same old, same old."

    Mathman

  6. #36
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    Canadian skaters

    I don't understand you figure skating fans. I am a Canadian fan of all figure skaters, no matter what country they come from. Now that Sasha and Michelle are injured, you guys have to pick on the Canadian champion. Why don't you sit back and enjoy the sport instead of nitpicking.undefined

  7. #37
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    Hey we are equal opportunity nitpickers ! Evaluating the judging is as much fun as evaluating the skating. Cynthia should be honored to be nitpicked here at GS...it means she has arrived.

  8. #38
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    Hey, Millie, thanks for registering for Golden Skate and for posting. Go Cynthia!

    Mathman

    PS. To make the buttons work right for bold, color, etc., first click on "Enhanced Mode" at the upper left of the dialogue box when you post.
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-02-2004 at 12:25 PM.

  9. #39
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    I watched the ladies LP> Cynthia and Yoshie did the same number of triples (5). Cynthia's spins and choreography are of a different caliber and the CoP rewards that. The CoP rewards figure skating rather than figure jumping. I think it's hard to get used to the CoP scoring because we're so used to jumps being the deciding factor. I think the programs were scored fairly, based on the CoP. In the longrun, the CoP will definitely be better for skating.

    As for what's the big deal about Cynthia...I want to wait til Canadians/Worlds to see this program really come together. Canadians know what is the big deal because we saw the program she put out at Canadians last year. Everyone expected a battle between Joannie and Jenn, then out came this little French ballerina with the big tricks to back it up. I love her and I love her ability to come back fighting when she's had a fall. Look forward to seeing her at the GPF.
    Last edited by Sk8n Mama; 11-02-2004 at 10:23 AM.

  10. #40
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    The new scoring system

    Thank heavens fot the new scoring system. Now the skaters will be judged on their skating, not the screaming fans, standing ovations and on how many triple triple they can do. Out with the 6.0's and in with true judging of the skaters . Now when the skaters go on the ice they will be judged fairly. Enjoy the skating.

  11. #41
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikaru
    JS 12 Singles - GOE Short Program

    On page 2, they mention the following
    "If a skater has more revolutions in a jump than described (e.g. quadruple instead of a triple jump), the Judges GOE must be in the “minus grades”
    for that element an the value of the jump will be change to the value of a jump with revolution required"
    OK, now I too am confused. Hey, CoP experts, what do you say? To begin with, I have no idea what is meant by the word "described" in the text. "Described" where? when? how? The only thing I can conclude is that they will penalize over-rotating.

    BTW, Hikaru, I never welcomed you to GS. I can always appreciate a poster who makes an argument, accepts correction, and (all important) isn't too lazy to find and site the source of his/her information. WTG!
    Last edited by Ptichka; 11-02-2004 at 04:18 PM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptichka
    OK, now I too am confused. Hey, CoP experts, what do you say? To begin with, I have no idea what is meant by the word "described" in the text. "Described" where? when? how? The only thing I can conclude is that they will penalize over-rotating.
    I third this request. Hockeyfan? Dr. Frog? GKelly?

  13. #43
    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptichka
    OK, now I too am confused. Hey, CoP experts, what do you say? To begin with, I have no idea what is meant by the word "described" in the text. "Described" where? when? how? The only thing I can conclude is that they will penalize over-rotating.

    BTW, Hikaru, I never welcomed you to GS. I can always appreciate a poster who makes an argument, accepts correction, and (all important) isn't too lazy to find and site the source of his/her information. WTG!

    Thanks for the welcome Ptichka! I've been wondering about that rule, by I cannot figure it out. I checked the document for the free skate and it seems it's not there. But I don't get what they are talking about. Unless it is a typo, which I don't think it is, 'cause they shoudl check the documents when they are posted, but hey, who knows.

    This confused me as the ruling of skaters that try a jump, fail, and the get graded as a lesser jump and withminus GOE. I was re-watching Skate America, the pairs free when Inoue and Baldwin wher doing the side by side triple lutzes, she goit it but he did a double, and Peter C. said that they woul get that move graded as a side by side double lutz because of the mistake. I'm gonna check the document just in case.

    The other thing I'm thinking about is the men and their quad jumps. Most men open their program with a 4toe, or a 4toe-3toe combo or somthing like that. SO, if they attempt the 4toe, but they under rotate it, then it would be rated as a 3toe. and if they had already plan 2 triple toes, then they would get Zayak... so they are going to have to be carefull with those, or perhaps change the combinations to other jumps, just to be sure?

  14. #44
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
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    I understood that if it's a planned Q that is tripled or under-rotated Q called by the TS as a triple, the Zayak rule doesn't go into effect. It's only if they plan too many or throw in unplanned ones. Let me clarify, though, that it's just whta I've heard from others and may not be correct. Let's e-mail the ISU and ask!

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikaru
    JS 12 Singles - GOE Short Program

    On page 2, they mention the following
    "If a skater has more revolutions in a jump than described (e.g. quadruple instead of a triple jump), the Judges GOE must be in the “minus grades”
    for that element an the value of the jump will be change to the value of a jump with revolution required"
    My understanding.

    First, note that this refers to the short program only.

    In the senior short program, men are allowed to do one quad (either in the combination or as the jump out of steps, but not both). Ladies and junior men are not allowed to do quads in the short program.

    So if a skater plans a quad that is not allowed under the short program rules, s/he will get credit for a triple and will also get a deduction/reduction in the GOE for doing a wrong jump, as well as possibly a more-negative GOE if there are also errors of execution.

    This rule would also apply if a junior lady did a triple-triple combination in the short program, or if a female skater or junior man did a triple axel for the solo axel jump, because these are not valid options under the current short program rules.

    As long as the skater reads the rules and doesn't plan jump content that violates them, this won't be a problem.

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