U.S. Coverage - Cup of China | Page 2 | Golden Skate

U.S. Coverage - Cup of China

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Re steroids:
In an interview, Irina has stated that she has paperwork that says that her condition is life threatening and that is why she takes the medicine. She has to present it at every competition and the IOC is aware of her condition. If she didn't have medical clearance, she would be banned.

I don't think the steroids she's taking are giving her any advantage over her competitors. I would bet that the side effects of the drug and her actual illness would counteract any muscular benefits she would receive from the drug.
 
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Nadine

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 3, 2003
Thanks for the added info. bronxgirl & soogar...

I am glad that we can discuss this openly & honestly without anyone taking offense.

The reason I bring this up is b/c I recall the big scandal in swimming that happened in the 90's. It was discovered that the reason the East Germans dominated the sport of swimming back in the 70's was b/c they had been given performance enhancing drugs (i.e. steroids). Thus, their dominance & abundance of gold medals during that era. And what had been suspected was proven 2 decades later (their doctors had been able to hide it well back then).

***EDITED TO ADD: found this link which describes the aforementioned case, as well as others -- http://cnnsi.com/olympics/news/1998/10/20/swim_medal

There are numerous reports of such throughout the decades in other sports as well. Another case has been track & field, where it is rampant, even resulting in Olympic gold medals being subsequently taken away. With the most recent case having had taken place this past summer in Athens, Greece, where the 2004 Olympics was held. It involved Hungarian Hammer Thrower Adrian Annus giving up his Olympic Gold Medal to Japan's Koji Murofushi, this after it was discovered that one of his two drug tests (which he took right before & after the competition) was not from the same person, rather two completely different individuals. Here's an article: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/athens/track/2004-09-13-annus-medal_x.htm?POE=SPOISVA

The above just proves to me that the ISU has to be on the ball at all times, so that such a situation does not happen in our sport. And it can, nothing's impossible, especially taking into account just some of the above stories (there are scads more). Things are not always what they appear. And the last thing figure skating needs is another scandal. JMHO.

Sincerely, Nadine

P.S. Even Pugilist/Boxer Mike Tyson was forced to discontinue his medication for depression at least 3 days before his scheduled fight with Lennox Lewis 2 yrs. ago. Good precaution, if you ask me, especially due to boxing coming under the microscope of performing enhancing drugs as well (aka steroids).

EDITED TO ADD: sorry about the link, for some reason my links have not been working, hmm. YES, fixed them!!! :agree:
 
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Joined
Aug 3, 2003
I was just so :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: HAPPY to see Irina happy, healthy, fit, and skating like gangbusters again. There's just such a huge difference in every single thing she does and the rest of the field, IMHO, that if Rini's health holds up, the Olympics could be the showdown for the OGM between Irina and Michelle we thought we were going to get in '02. Go Irina! Go Michelle! And go everybody else to make it a truly great Olympics for the ladies.

Re: the steriods -- the ones Irina are taking for her vasculitis are likely something along the lines of Prednisone or Cortef in low doses, which are used for their antiinflammatory properties and also to restrict the autoimmune response of the body. Vasculitis, like lupus and other connective tissue diseases, involve the body's immune system working too hard, with the end result being that the body's immune system "thinks" certain elements of its own tissue are "the enemy" and attacks them as if they were a deadly bacteria or virus.

I say that Irina is probably on a low dose of these particular steriods, which work very differently from anabolic steriods, because her face and body showed none of the puffiness, humped shoulders, or "chipmunk cheeks" (Dick Button would go wild if she did have that side effect -- J/K, it's serious business).. In some ways Irina's steriods are catabolic, meaning they break down tissue, if they're used for long periods at high doses. When chemical cortisol was first developed and used, ie, cortisone, in the late '50s and early '60s, physicians thought it was a true wonder drug. Unfortunately, the early patients who needed cortisone to live also were guinea pigs in terms of the side effects. High doses of cortisone over long periods (more than six consecitive months) can cause aseptic necrosis in the hip and shoulder joints, which means the cartilage and bone literally dies. The only treatment is total joint replacement surgery.

However, in the '80s, an influential physician/researcher published an important medical text entitled "The Safe Uses of Cortisone" in which he demonstrated how the benefits from high doses of cortisone could be replicated with doses at 1/10th the medically established dose, thus giving the patient the benefits of the hormone without subjecting them to the awful side effects.

It is true that the first day someone takes even a small dose of cortisone, they get a "WOW!" feeling, with increases in confidence and at high doses believing they can do anything. But that effect goes away after the first day and at low doses, most patients report feeling nothing more than something like a caffeine buzz.

Thus I'm not concerned about Irina getting unfair help with her skating from taking what I'm sure is some kind of cortisone for her vasculitis. Rather, I'm concerned that the cortisone doesn't affect her bones so that she winds up with a stress fracture or something like that.

Besides Irina, I was also thrilled to see Vika skate so well. Lord a'mighty, she's a hunka hunka stunning woman. And when she skates like that, well, let's just say I wouldn't kick that outta bed :cool:. But true, she's got to work on the spins, spirals, and more complex choreography, but let's hope she's over the consistency hump so she now will have the time to work on those other elements.

A lot of great skating at Cup of China. Bummer that the coverage goes so late. Being a nightowl, I don't usually have that problem, but even so, I'm videotaping every single one. I figure if it's a bomb or, even worse, a bomb I've seen too many times before, I can always tape over it with a sure thing -- like "SPINAL TAP!" :rock:
Rgirl
 

Linny

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Speaking of performance enhancing drugs

Only the figure skating fans on this board who are also equestrian fans would know that there is a cloud hanging over the equestrian Olympics involving some of the medalists because some of the horses tested positive for performance enhancing drugs. Interesting, eh?
Linny
 

bronxgirl

Medalist
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
Linny,
since I'm one of those equestrian fans, did Cian O'connor of Ireland have to give up his gold medal? Haven't seen anything in the papers (or about the German team either)
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Nadine said:
Lol, :biggrin:

At this point I have to assume that you 'purposely' choose to not read what I have written word-for-word, that or you have a reading comprehension problem. If the latter, my apologies. For example, I stated Sasha could blow the field away when it comes to those specific elements (i.e. spins & spirals), which I was originally talking about in regards to Irina being better than VV on those very same elements (i.e. spins & spirals; btw my apologies for repeating this over & over again, but want it to sink in this time). And that IF VV could match Irina on those specific elements (aka spins & spirals), then she would be able to beat her. As of now, that is not possible, b/c obviously VV is not as good as Irina as of right now on, last but not least, spins & spirals. :)

Peace & Love, Nadine :love:

EDITED TO ADD: I see right now someone has posted over on SkateFans what I have been thinking about also since it was reported last night on COC, and that is in regards to Irina Slutskaya taking steroids for her medical condition. Is this allowed? And if so, can it affect her performance ability, meaning 'enhancing' it? If so, it's not fair to the rest of the competitors no matter if it is for her medical condition. And I would think would not be allowed come Worlds. JMHO.

One last note, it's good that Irina is doing 3/3s again. However, I recall all the ones she did from the 2000 GPF onward were underrotated by either 1/2 or 3/8ths (even the ones that were ratified as being the first; aka 3Z/3R & 3S/3R/2T). Under this new system, they will be downgraded, same as Shizuka's & Miki's.

No I didn't read everything that you have written. Sometimes I have to scan if it's too long because I'm at work. Yes I'm a bad girl.
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Who was that guy??

Mathman said:
AMEN!
After a while I started to feel sorry for the play-by-play announcer. He obviously would rather have drawn any other assignment from ESPN than figure skating, LOL. Plus, he mispronounced almost everybody's name, even Edvard Grieg's, LOL.

Mathman

While I admit to being a dunce when it comes to correct spelling or pronunciation of many skater's names, here's the one that SCREAMED at me!

Isn't Joannie Rochette's name pronounced Jo-nee? He was calling her Jo-ann-ee. Maybe I'm the one who's been wrong all along...

Being the technical moron that I am, :) I haven't figured out how to include two different quotes from two separate posts in one reply. (and I'm happily ignorant, so am NOT asking for instructions!!)..

RGirl, as always I appreciate your posts. I too wondered during the COC coverage about Irina's steroids. I just assumed since it was being openly discussed that the ISU has approved whatever she's on. The term "steroids" is a very broad term.

Now for the funny part...

You mention cortisone shots. I had back surgery a couple years ago. Prior to the surgical decision, I tried a cortisone shot. OH MY GOD!!! No short term euphoria here. The only reason I'm not in prison for murder has to do with some high doses of mood altering, pain killing drugs LOL! The doc recommended a series of 3 C-shots, and I said no thank you very much. NO WAY could surgery be as painful as that!! (and it wasn't). I mean this in the most humorous way....I know that C-shots can solve lots of problems. Just reporting my own murderous experience. :biggrin:

DG
 

sk8pics

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
Doggygirl said:
Isn't Joannie Rochette's name pronounced Jo-nee? He was calling her Jo-ann-ee. Maybe I'm the one who's been wrong all along...

While I didn't like this announcer either, he had Joannie Rochette's name pretty correct. It's not Jo-nee but more like Jo-ann-nie with the emphasis on the last syllable, I believe.

Pat
 

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
Since Joannie is from Quebec, and seems to be French Canadian, then she probably uses a French pronunciation for her name. I think the French pronunciation would be closer to "zho-ahn-nee".

Js in French are pronounced differently than in English. Instead of being a "juh" sound, it's softer, more like "zhuh".
 

Kuchana

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 25, 2004
Nadine said:
Joannie Rochette -- nice girl, nice skate, good jumps. Furthermore, it seems to me that she is trying to emulate Michelle Kwan's skating style, just as I got the impression that her countrywoman Cynthia Phaneuf is trying to emulate Sasha Cohen's skating style. Which says a lot about America's two elite & exceptional skaters -- they have two very distinct & different skating styles -- which others around the world are trying hard to copy.

Really? That's interesting. Can you elaborate? I've read threads about Joanna emulating Michelle's style as well but not with Cynthia. I might have to get myself to watch Joanna skate just to see if there are any similarities:)
 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I find no similarities between the two except that they both have a very straight back and great posture.
 

lulu

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
One thing about B&A (and I'm not a 100% dance expert ;) ) is that Ben has orignally been seen as the stronger partner. That doesn't mean that Tanith is deficient as a partner; that just up until now Ben was actually the one who did more of the footwork. Tanith & Ben are now very much a partnership. I adore this program. I tend to go back and forth on this team. I really enjoyed "Sarajevo" hated "Elvis" disliked "WSS" and am very pleasantly suprised with this program. (Maybe I just have a thing for Ethnic folk-dances? ;) )
And complete fluff comment: Ben looks very attractive all scruffed up ;)




sk8m8 said:
Joe, I really do think that Ben's fall was exactly as Suzi said it was..."not on a requred element, not on an optional element, thus 1.0 deduction for the fall, end of story." Conversely, such that happend when B&K and the Italians fell, they had major deductions (and would be equally devistating under CoP), only the Canadians fell on a lift (required element) and Babs and Mags (well he did) on a footwork pass.

The one thing I do notice about B&A is that Ben is such an accomplished skater (excusing the fall) and does as much work as Tanneth. We've been told over and over again that if the partners don't do equal amounts of work, there a 'less than overwhelming' impression on the judges. The other thing to note is the attack these kids bring to their skating. Lord, if they do fall it will be a big ole' splat because they are skating at full tilt boogie.

As for Irina, who knew that an "old pro" like her would be racking up points left and right while the "up and comers" are struggling to make the skating elements "more balanced and 'mature'." Come to think of it, the CoP may be the one thing that keeps the youngsters at bay next worlds and Olympics.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Canada has two budding top tier skaters. The American's top tier may just call it quits after 2006, and maybe Irina and Shizuka (just guessing!). I believe we will be discussing which of Canada's two Ladies is the better. The rivalry will only make both of them better.

I do see promise in Kimmie and Katy but as of now, Cynthia and Joannie are ahead. Europe, for me, does not really produce top Lady skaters except for and hopefully, Susanna. However, Japan is definitely in the mix for top tier Lady skaters. Ando, for me gets better and better.

2006 Worlds should be a hoot.

Joe
 
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mpal2

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I was just rewatching Zhang & Zhang. I still do not think this is the best program for them, but they have improved it since Skate America. I keep getting the feeling that he is more into the program than she is though. It seems like he is the more outgoing of the two personalities and this program seems to bring out a little more of him than her. What do you think?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I thought the program was dreary. I fault the music. Not the most inspiring in the first place, they used a very repititious version that seemed caught in a loop. It did not build to anything (although it did take a little break in the middle to something a little livelier).

To me the result was that he seemed to be kind of pushing her unwillingly through the program.

MM.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Doggygirl said:
Being the technical moron that I am, :) I haven't figured out how to include two different quotes from two separate posts in one reply. (and I'm happily ignorant, so am NOT asking for instructions!!)
Now, Doggygirl, you know I take disclaimers like that as a DARE!

First, click on "enhanced mode" on the reply page. (In fact, you should edit your preferences so that you are always in enhanced mode.) Then whenever you want to quote something, click on the button on the far right in the row that starts with B, I, etc. -- on the icon that looks like a square "speech balloon" in a comic strip. The word "QUOTE" will magically appear in the dialogue box, in square brackets.

Alternatively, you can just type QUOTE in sqare brackets yourself.

Then you can scroll down and highlight, copy and paste whatever you want from earlier posts on the thread. Then hit "Close All Tags" on the right, or type /QUOTE in square brackets.

Oh. You knew all that, and were looking for a way just to click on Quote under a person's post? Um, nope, can't do that twice in the same post.

Mathman :p
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
WARNING: Long Boring Post

Doggygirl said:
RGirl, as always I appreciate your posts. I too wondered during the COC coverage about Irina's steroids. I just assumed since it was being openly discussed that the ISU has approved whatever she's on. The term "steroids" is a very broad term.
Everything about steroids is very broad, not to mention confusing and controversial, even to physicians who specialize in them, endocrinologists, i.e., the endocrine system = the glandular system = the hormonal system. I even failed to mention that steroids are hormones. And the whole thing is a further big boogar because each gland that releases hormones responds to and depends on what every other gland is doing. You can get details about the endocrine system HERE but just to get an idea of the complexity involved, imagine that each of these glands or hormone producing cell clusters releases anywhere from a couple to a couple of dozen hormones and they all have to work in concert with each other to keep the body healthy.

The endocrine system consists of: The adrenal glands; the pituitary and the hypothalamus; the thyroid and parathyroid glands; the endocrine cells of the pancreas (those releasing insulin and glucagon); the gastrointestinal hormones; the ovaries in women the testes in men; the placental and gonadal hormones; and the diffuse hormones throughout the body.

Just to give one example of how complicated all this is, if someone has Addison's Disease, which is a chronic weakness of the adrenal glands (John F. Kennedy, Sr. had it and was one of the early patients treated with cortisone for it) the thyroid automatically responds to the hypoadrenalism (underworking adrenals) with hypothyroidism (underworking thyroid).

If a physician does a TSH test (thyroid stimulating hormone) of the thyroid and the results show the thyroid to be weak (hypothyroid), the physician might logically assume the patient's symptoms -- such as fatigue, muscle weakness, low blood pressure, a nodule on the thyroid or goiter -- were due to the hypothyroidism and treat the patient solely with synthetic replacement thyroid hormone such as Synthroid, Levoxyl, Levothroid (all T4) or natural Armour thyroid (pork desiccated; combination T3 & T4). (Some physicians have pharmacists put together a special T3 only compound, but that's a whole other issue.)

However, if the physician doesn't bear in mind that the thyroid deficiency may have started with an adrenal disorder such as Addison's disease and doesn't test for it, the physician could actually make the patient worse by prescribing thyroid replacement hormone. When a patient has a disorder that weakens the adrenal glands, the thyroid gland automatically slows down in a natural response to keep the endocrine system in balance. Having the patient take thyroid replacement hormone (TRH), is like expecting your car to run well on plenty of oil but no gas. Depending on how weak the adrenals are and how much TRH the patient is taking, can cause acute adrenal insufficiency, which, if severe and not treated, can be fatal.

Anyway, that's just one example of how the endocrine system is interdependent in multidimensional ways. It's also why endocrine diseases can be so difficult to treat, why performance enhancing drugs involving the hormones such as anabolic steroids can be sometimes be difficult to detect, and why taking anabolic steroids can do such severe and permanent damage to essential organs, sometimes eventually leading to death.

Doggygirl said:
You mention cortisone shots. I had back surgery a couple years ago. Prior to the surgical decision, I tried a cortisone shot. OH MY GOD!!! No short term euphoria here. The only reason I'm not in prison for murder has to do with some high doses of mood altering, pain killing drugs LOL! The doc recommended a series of 3 C-shots, and I said no thank you very much. NO WAY could surgery be as painful as that!! (and it wasn't). I mean this in the most humorous way....I know that C-shots can solve lots of problems. Just reporting my own murderous experience.
Oh, man! I feel for ya, Doggygirl. OuchEEEE!!! Glad things worked out for you with the surgery. Of course, being the "on the other hand" annoying person that I am, on the other hand, some people do find great relief from cortisone shots, which you did point out ;) and are able to avoid surgery because of them. A lot depends on what structure is causing the pain and how good the doctor is at giving the shots.

I also wanted to add that the temporary euphoria I described virtually never happens when an injection of cortisone is given to a "trigger point" area of pain, usually either soft tissue or an inflamed joint. The "I CAN CONQUER WORLD!" feeling only comes when a large dose of cortisone is taken by mouth or injected into the bloodstream. Even then, if the person has been suffering from acute adrenal insufficiency and got both a venous injection and an IV drip of cortisone, the only "euphoria" s/he might feel would be, after several hours, "Hey, I don't feel like I'm going to die anymore."

For any masochists who want more detail on the basic anatomy and physiology of the endocrine system and specifically the adrenal glands, you can torture yourselves at the following links:
World book Encyclopedia: Endocrine System
Colorado State University Hypertext: Endocrine System
World Book Encyclopedia: Adrenal
Colorado State University Hypertext: Adrenal

For those who want a search page for "anabolic steroids sports" go HERE. I'd especially recommend THIS SITE because it reports the increasing number of teen girls using anabolic steroids. However, when I did a Google search for "anabolic steroids figure skating" almost every site on the first page reported that figure skating was the one sport in which the use of anabolic steroids had NOT been found.

IMO, building a lot of muscle mass, which anabolic steriods do, would be counterproductive for figure skaters, both men and women. They need muscle strength, but what they especially need is power. If there were a performance enhancing drug (PED) that built fast-twitch muscle fibers without bulk, made the body grow into the right type for fast axial rotation, improved balance for landing jumps, and artistry for interpreting the music and presenting the choreography, then there would be cause for concern. In a way, the nature of figure skating makes it too complex for cheating with PEDs. The only thing I can think of that might help a figure skater is something that increases anaerobic (lactic acid) endurance.

In the future, they may try to genetically engineer a baby with the characteristics that should make for a great figure skater, but I still think you can have all the right physical qualities and still not have the X factor that makes it all work. I bet we can all think of at least one skater who fits that description. For anybody whose read this far :rock:

Rgirl
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
:rock: Thanks for taking the time to write that post Rgirl. Very informative, as usual. (I read it all :biggrin:)

MM
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
PS. Look what I can do: :)biggrin:) :)p)

I can also do this (1998). But anybody can do that now.

MM
 
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