Taxes: Opening myself up to eggs, tomatoes, and who knows what else...

Hi Gezando and Doris....

Doris, you raise great points. It is difficult to "follow the money" and many people don't bother to keep track of things. I'm sorry that the changes over the last few years have worked out very negatively in your (and many people's) situation.

Yes Gezando, that tithing business is on "gross" according to every biblical scholar I've talked to. (believe me, I was sort of hoping for a different answer, so did talk to as many people as I could dig up LOL!). While I call myself spiritually confused, I am trying much harder these days to study and learn, etc. I have been richly blessed in MANY ways in my life, and so "giving back" has become a priority for me.

I still have a "corporate job." I've been in sales or sales management most of my post - college career, so that always comes with financial ups and downs. Up until a little over a year ago, my husband also had a corporate job that was mostly salary and paid well. Yes, we definitely considered ourselves blessed. BUT...we realized a few years ago that mathematically, the gross earnings of my husband equalled our Federal Income Tax bill. We got to keep whatever was left of my earnings after state taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, etc. went bye bye. That was the point where we it was time for hubby to start his own business.

There is an interesting book, one of the many we read on the path to our own business that I recommend. Rich Dad / Poor Dad by Robert T. Kiyosaki. It is written so it's easy to understand, and it describes his journey starting as a young boy learning about money, how to make it, and how to keep it.

Both of us came from lower middle class families who urged us both to achieve the American Dream of ending up better off than they were. On one hand, it's so exciting to work hard and achieve a better income situation than your parents ever had. For us, that joy was diminished by understanding what the tax implications are. So I guess we're just trying to get smarter about "working the system" that we have been given to work with.

Gotta run and see if the Men's comp is underway!

DG

Doris,

ICK! You are absolutely right about how the continuing loss of health insurance is hurting the poor and the elderly. My own case is an example. Because of multiple health issues ( the biggest being that no insurance company will insure me because no company wants to pay for dialysis or a kidney transplant) I can't work full time. But if I work part-time and actually could keep the job, I' d lose Medicaid. I could not make enough to pay for prescription drugs or regular visits I need, let alone another major health crisis that might require hospitalization, etc. Therefore, I'm stuck. In order to live, I gotta live poor and can't even work at all. (that doesn't prevent me from "working" at volunteer work)

Just to totally gross you out: today on the Fox News Network, Steve Forbes claims that we can reduce the cost of health care by requiring everyone to pay for their own. Yes, you heard it. Mr. Silver-Spoon thinks that everyone should pay for their own. He doesn't even think it should be paid for by businesses as a part of the cost of doing business. Just how he sees that working is a mystery to me. Guess he's one of those people who think the poor and sick should just die and clean up the gene pool.

And Lad, you are also right to point out that "we" in the US actually pay less of our income in taxes than not only Canada, but also the rest of the so-called "industrialized world." And even those people would be astonished if they had to pay the taxes of the past. Those taxes might have built things like pyramids, but also went to pointless wars and luxury for the ruling classes. The poor were constantly at risk of disease (more that the rich) and starvation. I remember an economics history course where we looked at other countries and other times, in terms of taxation and health care and the other basics of life. Actually, I think the poor of the past took some comfort when the "equal opportunity" diseases hurt the rich as well as the poor (think Black Death, smallpox and syphilis).

For all our complaining, we actually have it better than nearly all the world and much better than most individuals had it in the past. Now, if there was actually some kind of accountability for those big corporate expenses (back to Halliburton, but also to this weeks villain, Boeing) I doubt we'd all be upset for the relatively "small" expenses of a Greyhound Bus Museum.

Hi JOHIO2...

JOHIO2 said:

Doris,

ICK! You are absolutely right about how the continuing loss of health insurance is hurting the poor and the elderly. My own case is an example. Because of multiple health issues ( the biggest being that no insurance company will insure me because no company wants to pay for dialysis or a kidney transplant) I can't work full time. But if I work part-time and actually could keep the job, I' d lose Medicaid. I could not make enough to pay for prescription drugs or regular visits I need, let alone another major health crisis that might require hospitalization, etc. Therefore, I'm stuck. In order to live, I gotta live poor and can't even work at all. (that doesn't prevent me from "working" at volunteer work)

For all our complaining, we actually have it better than nearly all the world and much better than most individuals had it in the past. Now, if there was actually some kind of accountability for those big corporate expenses (back to Halliburton, but also to this weeks villain, Boeing) I doubt we'd all be upset for the relatively "small" expenses of a Greyhound Bus Museum.

Click to expand...

You bring up a great example of a big problem with our health care system. You sound like a person who WANTS to work, but it would be financially stupid for you to do so because of health insurance realities (and I believe you!). That is something that depresses me every time I hear it. That's a HUGE imperfection in the flawed health care situation around here. (one of many IMO)

I'm curious why you think that tax payers all over America should pay for a Greyhound Bus Museum anyway? Just because one thing stinks, or is a bigger problem (or several things, including big corporate shenanigans), does using the collective taxes of hard working Americans for frivolous things make the health care situation any better?

Reducing frivolous (IMO) spending doesn't fix other things per se. But... wasted money is wasted money in my opinion, no matter what it is wasted on. If more of our hard earned tax dollars SHOULD (and I think they should) be directed more to situations like yours, how do things like Bus Museums and Indoor Rain Forests, etc. help that?

Just wondering...

DG

DG,

Thanks for expressing appreciation for my charitable efforts. It's quite wonderful of you to contribute as much as you do, too.

The work or not work issue drives me crazy. There are people who want to work, but can't because they will lose their aid. This drives me nuts when people who are absolutely healthy don't work to keep their welfare money. I know there are people who really need the assistance and do not begrudge them, but there are just as many people who are just taking advantage. There's got to be rule changes to break the cycle.

I really wish that it were possible to require someone to use birth control if they are on welfare. Some say they can't work because they can't afford day care and then they go have more babies. You can't deny the baby financial assistance; so , it just goes on.

Just spouting off. The rules are to complex to comprehend and I am definitely not a subject matter expert. Nothing mentioned here refers to anyone on this board.

Heyang...

You've taken an issue that is certainly at the heart of the matter for me. Abuses of government sponsored / dictated programs.

I have no problem at all knowing that my tax dollars go to support people who are in need. Unfortunately, I personally know a number of people who are absolutely abusing the systems and programs in place. A few bad apples truly can spoil the whole bunch IMO.

I know people who are collecting unemployment while working for unreported cash on the side. I know people who are collecting disability payments either through social security or private insurance while working on the side for cash. I know people who by design, work intermittently - just enough to qualify for unemployment payments, and then "suddenly" they are unemployed once again. But they are miraculously re-employed the moment those benefits run out.

I'm really stepping out here inviting tomatoes and rotten eggs, but I wish our whole our society was more honest. I HATE my tax dollars going to support those who are just "working" the system. Sadly, I think that the fraudulent activity on the part of what it probably a minority works to the detriment of those who are truly in need of community / society support. That's a major reason why I'm working hard to reduce my tax situation, while increasing contributions to charities where I have more confidence that the dollars are being wisely spent for those who are the most in need.

DG

gezando, My husband retired after 30 years at IBM. IBM told us continually that we were all paid less than average because they were going to give us dental and medical for the rest of our lives. For many years, the medical and dental plan were free. A few years ago we started having to pay for them, and have been paying more and more each year.

As soon as Ski went on Social Security, not only couldn't he buy anything but drug insurance via the IBM programs, I (as another IBM retiree, but not on Social Security) also couldn't buy him either the IBM regular or various HMO options IBM offered either). Double whammy there. At this point, he buys Medicare A&B via Blue Cross and Blue Shield, and then buys the IBM drug insurance.

Now that we have retired, they have rewritten the medical coverage so that if you are on Social Security, you don't get the opportunity to buy meaningful medical coverage. There has been a long running IBM court suit about age discrimination and pension and medical coverage changes with age, so I have been following what goes on quite closely. The court case found for the older IBM employees and retirees, but the administration has been cancelling the rules and laws that require big corporations to deal honestly with employees and retirees at a furious rate.

I expect firmly that as soon as the 2006 version of the Medicare Drug Bill comes up, IBM retirees will be forced on to that too. This is a really bad thing, because there is no way he will be able to be part of the program, since he does not qualify for an HMO due to very bad health (the new version requires you to be on the HMO version of Medicare rather than regular Medicare to get the puny drug benefit). We will lose another 3K a year at least on this.

OTOH Doggygirl is right-the people gaming the system by working under the table are more and more numerous. The kind of welfare I worry about is corporate welfare. It's amazing how many large companies even pay no income taxes any more, due to various loopholes and offshoring of income.

And yes, the Steve Forbes vision of no corporate medical plans is exactly what the Bush administration is supposedly considering when they cancel the tax deductibility of corporate medical plans. The idea is supposed to be that if you were paying for your own medical problems that the doctors and hospitals would charge you less, and they point to the lower cost of plastic surgery versus other forms of surgery in some kind of 'proof'. It is the idea behind the private medical accounts. I find this attitude totally appalling.

JOHIO, I really feel for your situation. America is no country for the sick, as I know well by now. Problems like this are what universal health care programs are about. If everyone had health care, no one would have to stay poor to stay healthy.